acid baths? (also in horns section)

vivace · Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2003 3:19 pm Post subject:

Here at school, while cleaning my trumpet, the guy working there (also a fellow trumpeter) said lets clean your valves in the acid. I said why not, they could use it.... what a difference... my old Bb with rather sluggish valves are now a lot better. but.... since the horn is old and I didn't play it in almost a year till now... there is some crap in the leadpipe that will not come off...

my question... have any of you dipped your whole horn in acid? I know you can get a chemical bath and such, but... We both didn't know. And I want to get the crap out of my horn.

thoughts?
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_Don Herman · Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 10:13 am Post subject:

Most chemical baths are a mild acid bath (muratic, I believe). Some folk, like Wayne Tanabe at the Brass Bow, have done quite a bit of research into their cleaning fluids to avoid damage to brass (Wayne also uses an ultrasonic system so harsher chemicals are not needed).

I would remove felts and such before a chem clean.

If the stuff in your leadpipe is somehow oxidized (if that's the right word -- too long since inorganic chemistry in college) it may require special cleaning techniques. If it's just thoroughly hardened "gunk" then putting a cork in one end, filling it with a mixture of warm water and Dawn (or some such), and letting the trumpet stand on end for a while (hour or three) may help. Run a snake through it after; it may take several treatments to gradually clean it out. Without checking with a repairman, I would NOT leave any kind of (other) chemical in the horn that long.

FWIW, the ultrasonic method would probably get all the gunk out with less stress on you and the horn -- might be worth it to give Wayne a call.

HTH - Don
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Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

vivace · Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 11:44 am Post subject:

the thing is... the acid is there, for free... and as a poor college student... it seems rather tempting. My bud in the shop is researching it as well to see if it has any effects or not, and his boss knows about the acid. He said one guy used to dip his whole horn.
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"All music is folk music. I ain't never heard no horse sing no song." - Louis Armstrong

_Don Herman · Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 12:12 pm Post subject:

Hi Mat,

I don't know the acid would (seriously) hurt corks and felts, but can tell you it will discolor the felts. Did the ones on my old Bach, anyway. Last time a local guy did it for me, he took the top buttons (ivory inlays and felts off, saying the acid might affect them. He showed how it bleached the color out of an old felt; I presume it might etch the button inlays (ivory, plastic, or whatever). I guess it might be hard to clean ALL the acid out of the felts, which could be a problem, and don't really like getting them all wet anyway (changes their density -- and thus valve alignment -- when they dry). He took the valves out so "the solution would flow through the horn better" and placed them in a cup (actually, three separate cups) which had the same solution as the vat the horn was in to soak for a while. He took my corks off, but was replacing them anyway and said it'd provide a cleaner start. He gave the impression he doesn't normally take them off, but I didn't ask. Nor did I ask what was in the vat (rats!); he said it was a commercial cleaning agent and was acid based, fwiw. Smelled somewhat like the muriatic acid I got to clean the garage floor, and another technician later told me that's what they used, thus my inference that it's the (or, a common) acid used for cleaning (in much milder concentration than for my floor, I think!)

Horn Flush is what I use at home; some expert technicians (not Wayne; haven't asked) have told me it is safe (when used as directed, of course

).

HTH - Don
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Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

walter · Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 5:00 pm Post subject:

Don- It has been a long time also for me to have taken basic inorganic chemistry. I think that I remember that muriatic acid is used in etching glass. It can't be stored in glass containers for that reason, as I recall. I don't remember what else it affects, but it would probably be good to know when going into a situation.

I just found out that my mother-in-law used to fill a small container with bleach, and when she did so, she did it over the closed lid of a washing machine, rather than over a sink. I've had to toss out lots of my clothes which developed bleach stains, and I regularly use the top of the washer to fold clothes.

In a similar vein, I had to replace the trap in the kitchen sink about a year ago. It had been totally eaten through (it was metal, and is now plastic), and at the time I had no idea why a standard trap had worn away so badly. It turns out that she would fill a container with bleach & water, then soak whatever she wanted to "clean". Unfortunately, when she dumped the bleach water, she didn't rinse the effluent with lots of water; ergo, these acid solutions might sit in the trap for many hours.

The lesson: be very conservative with acids.

_Don Herman · Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 11:08 am Post subject:

Hi Walter,

Thanks for the note! Our water (from a well) is acidic, and leaves nice blue stains on all our sinks etc. from eating away at the copper plumbing. Our church recently had to have a 2" inlet (main line) replaced because it was eaten clear through -- it was an ugly thing to see, and got me very nervous about our house... I see a water conditioner in our future!

I think bleach is a base (hi Ph) solvent, not acid (lo Ph), though could be wrong. At any rate, I've certainly done my bit to artistically modify the clothes on top of the washer now and then.

All the best - Don

(edit) p.s. In the second inorganic chemistry class, one gal in the lab got the "add water to acid, or water to acid" bit wrong. Actually, it wouldn't have mattered, for she took a full liter beaker of sulfuric (might have been HCl) acid (high molar) and dumped it down the sink. Things went swimmingly for nigh unto milliseconds, until the acid met the water in the trap and the mixture exploded, blowing the trap to smithereens and the doors off the sink cabinent. There was even more excitment in a couple of organic labs... Those were the days!
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Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

[ This Message was edited by: Don Herman on 2003-09-23 14:15 ]

Tootsall · Heavyweight Member Joined: 05 May 2002 Posts: 2952

Don, bleach is chlorine based. Chlorine is LOW pH and would only add to the problems. If you have low pH water, you'll want to be adding a caustic or other HIGH pH chemical to bring the pH back up to "neutral". You might consider replacing the pipes in the house with proper code plastic too, since many plastics will resist low pH (I'd be asking the local municipality engineering department what the city/town recommends). I'm not sure if there are currently water treatment systems in the market to address this problem... most of them seem to be devoted to correcting HIGH pH water so that you don't get calcium buildup (aka..."hard water"); the reverse to your problem.

If there are firms in your area who handle water treatment equipment, give 'em a call.

Edit: (now, back to writing up instructions for the factory lab water conditioning system).

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[ This Message was edited by: Tootsall on 2003-09-23 15:13 ]

_Don Herman · Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 12:35 pm Post subject:

Thanks, Tootsall! Clx + H20 -> HCl plus other junk -- duh!!! Apologies for ever doubting you, Walter! Now you see why I became an electrical engineer and not a ChemE.

Local code requires copper, not plastic (don't ask me why). Systems available to us for raising Ph, at least so I've been told by various sale types, are those which include active carbon or similar filtering in addition to (usually after) the salt (softening) process. Can't recall the last we spoke with (several years ago) -- EcoWater or something like that? They claimed to be used in the majority of commercial installations in the country. It was a two-stage system, with a conventional water softener followed by a large canister/ion exchange system (their claim; I don't think it's the same fancy ion filter system as in my dad's microbiology lab, but rather an activated carbon thingie). The second stage was to restore the taste (I hate that water softener taste, and apparently am not alone) but the salesman claimed it would also restore Ph balance to 7.0 and so remove the acidity. Hmmm...

Sigh.... I suppose a whole-house distillation and ion-exchange system is out of the question. Maybe I should just make a still!

Onwards - Don
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Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

vivace · Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2003 2:04 pm Post subject:

ok... about the acid... it will turn your horn red if it is a: silver, or b: imperfect lacquer.
so... yah, so much for that
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"All music is folk music. I ain't never heard no horse sing no song." - Louis Armstrong

vivace · Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2003 2:19 pm Post subject:

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"All music is folk music. I ain't never heard no horse sing no song." - Louis Armstrong