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Besson 2-20 worth it?



 
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dmb
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:15 pm    Post subject: Besson 2-20 worth it? Reply with quote

I was checking Craigs List for used trumpets and found a silver plated English Besson 2-20 with case in excellent condition (atleast from the pictures) for $195. It would be less than an hours drive one way to go check it out but was wanting thoughts from those who have played one if it's even worth the gas money.
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:19 pm    Post subject: Besson 2-20 worth it? Reply with quote

I would have to question why a trumpet fanatic would NOT take the opportunity to go try a horn for under $10 in gas money <LOL>.

Seriously the Besson 2-20 was an intermediate horn, I thnk the 8-10 was above it in the hierarchy and certainly the 10-10, which is supposed to be quite a trumpet. I have a 2-20 which I bought in raw brass from Paul Ayick a few years ago. Paul had heard from someone that the thing to do was to move the tuning slide brace up to where it is on the French Besson, at the end of the tuning slide from its position about a inch back. The horn also had a first valve saddle added which I had beefed up because it looked a little flimsy. After I got the horn I searched for TH threads and had Rich Ita look at it. One thread mentioned moving the forward bell brace and Rich agreed to do that by ear and it ended up about 2.25 inches further back than its original position. Today I might consider removing that brace entirely, but my guess is that Rich considered that. You could certainly get a Kanstul tone post and use that either to decide where to put the brace or as a permanent tunable brace.

Rich used the term "ballsey" for this horn, which has a nice dark lower register. The valves on mine are just a tad leaky. I should be using some heavy oil on them. It is not my go-to horn at present, but I have a couple of really wonderful vintage horns (a Holton 51LB and a gold plated 1928 Llewellyn model Holton) which possibly beat it out by a little. I do enjoy playing it and, since this thread prompted me to get it out, I'll be playing it tomorrow, and there is no guarantee I won't like it better than the others at present. As I recall, it is a nice, free blowing horn that is a bit darker than average and has an easy high register. The bore measures about 0.465." Paul thought it was a great jazz horn. Since I never played it without the brace mod on the tuning slide, I can't say how much that improved the horn. I seem to remember good reviews of the horn in threads here. While it is technically an intermediate, I think I plays as well as a pro horn. If you find a reasonable tech to do the mods, I don't think you would have over $100 in moving the two braces and mounting the first valve saddle. Since the one you are considering is in silver, the mods shouldn't create much in the way of cosmetic problems.

If you go to Paul's website, you may be able to find pictures of the 2-20 he sold me. He had bought three and kept one and sold the other two. The pix would show where the brace was moved to, but so would any picture of a French Besson. You might want to look at how the first valve trigger was made, as it is an easy way to put one on and doesn't require reversing the tubing on one side of the slide --- and it works quite well.

If I didn't have one, I would definitely consider it in silver at this price, although it doesn't hurt to try to get the guy down a little, particularly if there are dents. You can check ebay and you will find these horns at this price or lower, but you can actually play this one, so it might be worth it to pay what this guy is asking if you like the horn. I would guess you could get one for $100 on ebay (check completed auctions), but it probably wouldn't be in good silver plate, you would owe shipping and you couldn't try it first. Show the guy the completed auctions and try to get it for $150 . . . or pay his price if you really like it and he won't budge.

Probably more than you wanted to know . . . . .
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KansasTrumpet
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have own a few of these horns and have one that I go back to from time to time as a regular player. This are very ncie horns, but I dont think I would drive an hour or pay that price for one. If you prefer to buy horns in a face to face situation, so it. Otherwise, I think I bought my most recent one off of ebay for $100 and it was in near mint condition.
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ConnArtist
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it were *me*... I wouldn't. The 10-10 can be had for $200-$300, which was their top-of-the-line for that era. As KansasTrumpet points out, the 2-20 can be scored for $100. These are all ebeigh prices though.

My 10-10 plays better than any horn I've ever played on, but I have not played the 2-20's. I know OP is looking for input from those who have played on one (which I hope more will chime in about!). But in terms of price... *I* would only offer $100, and only make the trek if I had other plans to be out that way.
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dmb
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks all for the input. Looks like I will be close to the seller in a couple days for other reasons so I'm going to check it out for the sake of curiosity.

Who knows, maybe I'll fall in love, again.
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:15 pm    Post subject: Besson 2-20 worth it? Reply with quote

Hi again, Dan,

I was wrong about the bore of the 2-20, it is 0.460," as I found out when I used my better calipers. I also got out the horn and played it a bit. I was surprised that it is the openest blow of all my horns and the easiest to play at high C and above. There might be one or two whose tone I like a little better, but right now I am playing the Besson again.

As far as price, it all depends on the condition. Most of them are going to be in lacquer with nickel accents. The all silver finish is a plus and if it has few dents, so is that. At present I don't see any completed auctions for 2-20's for under $100 except one that had loose braces and numerous dents. It was $68, but just the soldering to get the braces done is going to put it near $100 without dent removal. I still say if it is in silver with pretty good plating and few dents and if it plays well for you, $150 or maybe even the $195 he's asking is not too much. Sure, you can wait for a bargain to come down the pike and it may, but then again, it may not.

As far as a 10-10 for $200 to $300, the same comments about condition apply. Personally I check ebay from time to time and I have never seen a 10-10 for sale in the US. The shipping alone from the UK would be $75 and the Brits seem to know something about these horns, so I would doubt you'd get one that cheap. Then there would be the dents to fix. since Conn Artist says they are available cheap, I'll be a little more diligent in my looking and maybe I'll find one.

I'd be interested to hear whether you like the 2-20.
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Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
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ConnArtist
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice to know the bore on the 2-20, royjohn! I have no calipers to measure my own 10-10.

There is a 2-20 on ebeigh right now starting at $60 with original case, and no bids yet. Seems there is always a 2-20 listed.

10-10's only seem to pop up once every 3 or 4 months there. The ones that actually *sell* have always gone between $200-300. Maybe $350 if original case and/or some case candy inside.

I have not played the 2-20, but have *read* (mostly here on TH!) that they are very different animals. Not to say the 2-20 is "merely" a student horn, but a different one from the 10-10. The 10-10 is very nimble, responsive, and lots of bright zing. Super easy in the upper register for me, and less resistance for me than my Strad 37ML. I've read the 2-20 is a "darker" horn (I hate describing sound that way...). But being of the same era, I'd bet the valves are just as lightning-fast, and the horn is just as responsive.

I should have tempered my earlier post. My experiences with CL (not just for horns), always involve looking at stuff in less than working order for an asking price twice (or more) than what is reasonable. One of my unstated reasons that *I* would not drive an hour unless it it something potentially worth $1000+

But since you'll be in the area, dmb... bring the valve oil(!!!) and a mouthpiece and tell us what you think! Given ebeigh prices, I'd still ask "How's $100 sound?" with open wallet showing exactly 5 20's inside. Maybe $150 if it's nearly pristine and that's their counter offer. You should be able to do as well on ebeigh if you don't mind the wait/hunt, and could point that out if they insist on $200 firm (and if you desperately want the thing). Keep us posted!
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study888
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:20 pm    Post subject: Besson 2-20 worthit? Reply with quote

Hello,the Besson 10-10 is the vintage model most sought after. There was another higher grade Besson Trumpet of that era. That had the same features of the Olds Recording,minus the offset valves.

One sold on e-bay a couple of years back. Listed as having a Gilded Bell etc. Was a beautiful engraved horn. Some one had a topic post on here of all the Besson models of the 1960's/70's,sold to the USA. If you can find that post,you can read about all the differant models.

The Besson 20-20 model was a intermediate model with another student model along with the Oxford trumpet listed below it.

Before I bought a Besson 20-20 model Trumpet. I would try to find a good buy on a Kanstul made Besson 800 International Trumpet. Even the Kanstul Besson 609 model should be a better horn. Good luck
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mffan
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 11:57 am    Post subject: Re: Besson 2-20 worthit? Reply with quote

[quote="study888"]Hello,the Besson 10-10 is the vintage model most sought after. There was another higher grade Besson Trumpet of that era. That had the same features of the Olds Recording,minus the offset valves.

One sold on e-bay a couple of years back. Listed as having a Gilded Bell etc. Was a beautiful engraved horn. Some one had a topic post on here of all the Besson models of the 1960's/70's,sold to the USA. If you can find that post,you can read about all the differant models.

The Besson 20-20 model was a intermediate model with another student model along with the Oxford trumpet listed below it.

Before I bought a Besson 20-20 model Trumpet. I would try to find a good buy on a Kanstul made Besson 800 International Trumpet. Even the Kanstul Besson 609 model should be a better horn. Good luck[/quote

I can endorse the 2-20 after many hours of play in the bands I am in. I also have a 609, which I do not think is better than the 2-20. Different sound quality , both of which I like. Getting either with good valves is essential, or have extra's suitable for spare parts, or lots of money for a valve job. I find Hetman's #3 works best.
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plp
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have had several 2-20's and presently have a 10-10, haven't seen many 10-10's under 500.

The 2-20 is a great trumpet for the price, and that price isn't 195.00 very often, more in the 75 to 125 range, depending on condition. The silver plated ones are more rare, and if it is in very good to excellent condition could well be worth what the seller is asking. Of course, how it plays is key, to me personally would be worth the drive to check out.

There is something unique about the English Bessons as far as the way they play, more 'junk' in the tonal quality than some, ballsy is an apt description. They are pretty out front, yet have a lot of lower overtones, sort of the anti-Committee.
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ConnArtist
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So how'd you like it, dmb?
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dmb
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just got an email back from the seller a couple days ago telling me he sold it several weeks ago. Looks like we'll never know.

Thanks to all for the interest and input, though.
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know it is an old thread. I recently bought one in 98% condition. Like other's have said the low register plays fantastic as does the mid range. THe higher up yo go the more you have to control your air, tongue and aperture. It will play fantastically on the upper register as soon as you learn to breath deeply, control your air and watch what your toungue is doing! So far I have not been able to over blow it

Different sound but still should be on the same level as Olds Ambassador.

Figuring out what your tongue is doing and playing in a tiny room will greartly your partner and his ear. Take note pad record in front of the bell and behind the bell
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Capt.,

Look back at the suggested mods and consider moving the tuning slide brace to where it is on the French Bessons and moving the forward bell brace back some to tune it.

Enjoy the horn. It's quite an undervalued treasure.
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Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
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lortron
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 4:36 am    Post subject: Besson trumpet "Prototype" Reply with quote

I have a Besson prototype trumpet that was given to me by a now deceased musician friend. He has played in big bands all over the world including Las Vegas and told me the trumpet might be valuable as it was a one off made by Besson of 198 Euston Road London. The bell is engraved with-
Class A New Creation
(50 Medals of Honour)
Besson & Co
"Prototype"
198 Euston Road
London
England
*
WH Paling & Co
N.S Wales
& Queensland

there are floral designs around the text.
I don't know where to go to have it appraised. Any ideas would be well appreciated.
Link to images of trumpet here http://www.lortron.com/Besson%20Trumpet.html
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bessons with the New Creation label were built from about 1920 through the 1960's or so. The serial number on yours would put its manufacturing date at about 1930. IDK whether this is a one off trumpet or not, and it would take someone with a very specialized knowledge of the brand to tell you that. The New Creations were pro level trumpets. In 1930 some trumpets were still in high pitch, so someone needs to play a few notes to see if it is in low pitch of A=435 or 440 or not. High pitch is about A=452 and trumpets in high pitch can't play with modern instruments. Yes, you can pull slides to get in pitch or convert the horn by cutting slides, but often this does not work well and the horns are not well in tune.

I see a Bb/A Besson Prototype for sale at Dillon Music for $495. They are a good indicator of a typical retail price. Yours could be worth a little more as it is silver plated. Perhaps it was a special order. English Bessons are just not as collectible as old French Bessons or some other brands like Martin Committees, which could bring prices in the thousands.

Since this horn is 80+ years old, the valves may or may not leak. The horn could have been played very little or it could have had the valves replated and they may be in great shape. If they do need to be rebuilt, that is a $400 job and reduces the value of the horn accordingly.
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Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
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joe1joey
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:28 pm    Post subject: Besson New Creation Cornet Reply with quote

Well, the question of whether the 'older ' brass from England is a HP or LP is valid and worth checking out before a purchase. Oddly, despite treaties and such that determine the outside dates that the transition to LP must be made, there really wasn't a particular year in which you were certain that it would be a HP previous to the 'treatise'. In fact, I have a New Creation cornet that is listed as a 1918, yet plays in LP only, is in a case designed for it yet with no extra slides and most importantly, is untouched and plays with remarkably spot on intonation. It also has no LP written/stamped anywhere on the horn.
Great British horn but it is curious that as far back as that the LP seems to be 'accepted' as the one pitch.
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi joe1joey,

Wow, long running occasional thread! Started in 2011 and your reply is first in about ten months. Just goes to show that English Besson fans are perhaps few, but dedicated, I guess.

I got curious as to what Google would find on this question and pulled up a Wikipedia article on "Concert pitch." It is here, for those who want to delve deeper:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_pitch_standards_in_Western_music#History_of_pitch_standards_in_Western_music.

The stuff most relevant to your comment is in the section on 19th and 20th century standards. It says, in part:

<<In England the term "low pitch" was used from 1896 onward to refer to the new Philharmonic Society tuning standard of A = 439 Hz at 68° F, while "high pitch" was used for the older tuning of A = 452.4 Hz at 60° F. Although the larger London orchestras were quick to conform to the new, low pitch, provincial orchestras continued using the high pitch until at least the 1920s, and most brass bands were still using the high pitch in the mid-1960s.[9]>>

My Besson 2-20 is a 1940's instrument and is definitely in LP. I have some other Bessons, cornets, from the same period (40's to 60's) and they are all in LP. I am no expert on BBB history, but I would guess that bands with sponsors (such as coal companies) changed over when new instruments were bought for the whole band. Others might have stayed in high pitch longer to use old instruments. I assume there were high competition level coal company bands and lower level town bands where folks provided their own instruments co-existing at the same time, and that may account for the dual standards lasting from about the 1920's to the 1960's. Of course, the fact that some Bessons were exported to the US may have also influenced this, too. Instruments sent here would have been in LP, mostly, in the 40's and later. I've seen US cornets for sale with two sets of slides, but they all seem to be from about the 1890's to the 1910's.

Anybody know more about this, perhaps someone from across the pond (from me in the US, that is)?
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Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
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plutopete
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 7:59 am    Post subject: Besson 2-20 worth it? Reply with quote

Hi all ! I bought a Besson 2-20 made between 48 and 52 in raw brass and have been playing it for a couple months. I also have a Bach Mt Vernon ML late 60s, 72 bell, a Yamaha 6320S , a Buescher Ambassador, and a King Cleveland Superior. They are all polished on the inside of the bore, and removable dummy slide pieces at top and bottom of the tuning pull. The Besson is my favorite, though I might go with the Bach for classical or the Yamaha for lead. The Besson is the nicest tone. I use a Bach 6 rim on an original Heim deep V, thin-walled. My request here is, would it be easy for someone to post here a link to pictures of those brace modifications please?

Thanks
Pete Goehring
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello plutopete,
Hard to believe it's been 7 years since my last post in this thread. Pictures won't help as much as measurements and description. The brace on the tuning slide is moved forward to be where the one on the French Besson is...directly over the base for the water key on the 2-20, on the ferrule where the straight leg of the tuning slide is fastened to the rounded end. It's in the usual place where these braces are placed when there is just one and it is out at the end of the tuning slide. You can google images for French Besson and see where it is.

The bell brace on mine was placed by ear by Rich Ita of Brass Instrument Workshop. So if the tech is able to do that, he just moves it along the bell (tapes it in place) until the response seems best. If he wants to copy what Rich did, he should move the brace back exactly 2.150". I just measured...it is easy to see the mark where the brace was before. You could also just leave the brace off entirely if you are careful with the bell and like the response better that way.

Because you've added significant mass to the tuning slide, YMMV and things may be different for you. I just did as I was instructed by some other people who had done this mod.

I really like this trumpet, it is one of my favorites and I do think the mods made it sound better. I thank you for the opportunity to get it out again and play it...haven't played much lately due to medical concerns, but will certainly practice up! Good luck with your horn, I think they are undiscovered gems.
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