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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The original Claude Gordon Model, CG1, CG3, CG5 (if it existed), CG7 and CG10 were all made by Benge. The Claude Gordon Model was the first of these, and the one Claude actually played in the late '60's through the '70's. It was about the diameter of a Bach 5C with a slightly more V-shaped cup, bigger throat and bigger backbore. The CG1 through CG10 were all of the same approximate size and cup shape of the Bach mouthpieces of similar model number, but the CG cups again, were a bit more V-shaped (more of an alpha angle and slightly deeper) than each corresponding Bach cup and had larger throats (usually a #23) and backbores than the Bach models.

The CG Personal was Claude's last mouthpiece design. It is the deepest and most V-shaped of all of them, with a large throat (usually a #22 but sometimes as big as a #19), and a very open backbore. This mouthpiece was and is produced by Kanstul.

In more recent times, the Marcinkiewicz Company has produced very close versions of the CG Personal and the CG3. In the Marcinkiewicz nomenclature they are called the Claude Gordon P and Claude Gordon 3, respectively. They are not exactly the same as the Kanstul versions, the main difference being, the Marcinkiewicz versions of the CG 3 and CG Personal have identical rim sizes and contours, where as the original CG3 and CG Personal did not (the original CG3 has a larger inner cup diameter and the rim is thinner than the CG Personal). The Marcinkiewicz decision to make the rims and cup diameters identical allows the player who likes to use different mouthpieces for different music styles (something Claude would not condone!) to have the same rim shape and feel on his face. One could though, theoretically use the Marcinkiewicz Claude Gordon P model for trumpet and the Marcinkiewicz Claude Gordon 3 model for piccolo trumpet – I think Claude would approve of that (perhaps). As most of you know, I did a similar thing in the development of the Mohan mouthpieces offered by Kanstul. The Mohan 7MV and the Mohan 7SV are each shallower versions of the Kanstul CG Personal. They have rim shapes, cup diameter sizes, throats and backbores that are identical to the CG Personal, but each is a bit shallower in comparison to the CG Personal. You can see and compare these mouthpieces to the CG Personal, CG3, and many other mouthpieces on the Kanstul Comparator.

Concerning the CG3, several players, including Eric Bolvin, have alleged that the current Kanstul version of the CG3 is not identical to the older, Benge-produced CG3 mouthpieces. That may be true, but I’m not sure why. Perhaps the Benge CG3 mouthpiece that Jim New scanned to make their copies was an odd-off one. If so, he should scan some more of them!

I like what Marcinkiewicz has done in merging the CG3 cup design to have the same rim and cup diameter as the CG Personal – but that’s not to say it’s for everyone. To the player interested in using the CG type mouthpieces, I’d suggest that since they are not very expensive, the player should try both the Kanstul and the Marcinkiewicz versions and see which one he or she likes better. If they like the Kanstul CG Personal the best, but want a second, shallower mouthpiece for pic, or (excuse me Claude), lead or rock playing, they would have the option of ordering a Mohan 7MV or 7SV to match with their CG Personal, or they could even have Jim New at Kanstul use his computer to merge the cup shape and depth of a CG3 with the rim of the CG Personal and then they’d have a similar matching set to what they could get with the Marcinkiewicz versions. And of course, if they find they like the Marcinkiewicz version of the CGP best, then they have that option to match mouthpieces right from the get-go.

Both the Kanstul and Marcinkiewicz lineups of Claude Gordon mouthpiece are fine. But they are a little different from each other. The choice of which to use is an individual one.

I see no merit in attempting to find a Monette mouthpiece that is similar to the CG mouthpieces, or of having someone try to merge Monette ideas with CG ideas (actually, some of those ideas tend to be similar already – big backbores and big throats being among those ideas). If one wants to play a Claude Gordon type mouthpiece, there are already two sets of new choices from two different companies and used choices from the third, original company (Benge) – that’s enough I think.

By the way, I’ve got some brand new Benge CG10 cornet mouthpieces. I found them on eBay years ago. They were old store stock and being sold off by a music store going out of business. I think some of them are still sealed in the plastic wrap. Any takers?

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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leadtpt1955
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John, I'll take one of those CG 10 cornet pieces. PM me with your price

I'll have to chime in and agree with Eric Bolvin about the Benge and Kanstul CG3 pieces. I have one of the Benge originals and it's quite different from the Kanstul piece I also own. The Benge has a much softer inside rim edge and is similar to the Benge CG Personal model and the CG7 I own. Perhaps I'll send my pieces to Kanstul to get scanned. Matt Graves has had my CG Personal for a while now. Perhaps he'll be able to chime in here with his thoughts about it.

Cheers!
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Rick,

I think $45 including shipping via USPS Priority Mail.

Best wishes,

John
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Mr.Hollywood
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Fellas, Before I even post I won't blame any of you for flaming the sh!t out of me.........You know how we are over at the Reinhardt forum so whats good for the goose etc........

I have been reading this thread with much curiosity. I have seen many of those CG mps over the years and every one I saw was HUGE!!!! How could Claude expect his students to play those mps on commercial type gigs. I know Paul Cacia played a 13A4A for most of his career and I've seen the Bob O'Donnell model (pretty shallow).

Funny thing is my teacher (Reinhardt) would have you playing on the smallest thing you could possibly get a noise out of. In his studio he a two boxes.....one filled with 13A4A's and the other with 6A4A's !!!!! I could never play either one they were way too shallow for me back then.

I think a player should try and find something thats shalllow enough to play todays commercial music, but yet has enough cup room to sound good playing an etude (of course this does not apply to heavy legit players) but for most of us I either see players that are playing way too big and killing themselves or way too small and souning like kazoo's that can't get over the horn.

So my question......why did Claude have his boys playing huge deep V cups with #23 throats and large backbores when many of them were in the commercial music world?

BTW- I know that I mentioned someplace here on TH recently about how much Reinhardt liked the "text" part of Claudes "Systematic Approach". To quote Reinhardt after he read it......."Now heres a guy with some common sense" (meaning Claude).

Thanks Guys, and I hope your all working in this crummy economy.

Chris LaBarbera
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr.Hollywood wrote:
Hey Fellas, Before I even post I won't blame any of you for flaming the sh!t out of me.........You know how we are over at the Reinhardt forum so whats good for the goose etc........

I have been reading this thread with much curiosity. I have seen many of those CG mps over the years and every one I saw was HUGE!!!! How could Claude expect his students to play those mps on commercial type gigs. I know Paul Cacia played a 13A4A for most of his career and I've seen the Bob O'Donnell model (pretty shallow).

Funny thing is my teacher (Reinhardt) would have you playing on the smallest thing you could possibly get a noise out of. In his studio he a two boxes.....one filled with 13A4A's and the other with 6A4A's !!!!! I could never play either one they were way too shallow for me back then.

I think a player should try and find something thats shalllow enough to play todays commercial music, but yet has enough cup room to sound good playing an etude (of course this does not apply to heavy legit players) but for most of us I either see players that are playing way too big and killing themselves or way too small and souning like kazoo's that can't get over the horn.

So my question......why did Claude have his boys playing huge deep V cups with #23 throats and large backbores when many of them were in the commercial music world?

BTW- I know that I mentioned someplace here on TH recently about how much Reinhardt liked the "text" part of Claudes "Systematic Approach". To quote Reinhardt after he read it......."Now heres a guy with some common sense" (meaning Claude).

Thanks Guys, and I hope your all working in this crummy economy.

Chris LaBarbera


Okay boys, step aside. I'll handle this one. (Just kidding!)

While some of Claude's successful students did play very small mouthpieces, others played commercial gigs just fine on mouthpieces right up to and including the CG Personal (which is about the same size and depth as a Bach 7), and in some cases, even bigger ones. Rich Hoffman, CG Student, LA studio musician and Trumpet Professor at Cal State Northridge was doing it all on a Bach 1 the last time I saw him. Carl Leach played lead trumpet for years at the Flamingo in Vegas on a CG Personal and there were others as well. Lee Loughnane, trumpet player and one of the original founding members of Chicago plays on a CG Personal exclusively. I played 1st trumpet on "Cats" for a while on it - and it was during that time that the MD told me my sound was bigger than it normally was.

Claude's feeling was that small restrictive mouthpieces hold back development and also have a set level of resistance that cannot be changed - and what's more, that resistance is on the wrong side of the lips. Back in the '80's I was studying with Claude, developing my strength and ability and playing in places like the LA Jazz Workshop alongside of players such as Wayne Bergeron. I was playing a Bach 1-1/2C at the time (I've always had trouble with the rim of the CG Personal, so Claude had me on my Bach). It did seem hard to keep up with the guys with the small, shallow mouthpieces up high, but up to around High D or so I could bury them. Later, I went to Joe Marcinkiewicz and me made me a slightly shallower version of a Bach 1-1/2C and it worked real well for me in commercial settings. Claude grumbled about it a bit, but he put up with it. And bear in mind, though it was slightly shallower than a 1-1/2C, it was by no means a peashooter mouthpiece.

When I hear players like Arturo Sandoval able to bury other players anywhere from Double Pedal C to Triple High C, all the while playing mouthpieces as big as the Mt Vernon 3C (MV3C cup is about the same size as a modern 1-1/2C), I realize that Claude Gordon, Vincent Bach and Renold Schilke were right. It's best to play a decently large mouthpiece and develop into it rather than trying to play something too small that makes it seem a little easier but really impedes development.

I think there's one thing we agree on, Chris: Too many players do try to play mouthpieces that are either too small or too big for them. And I like your suggestion that one should find a mouthpiece that is small enough so that they don't fall into it, but big enough that they can play a decent etude on.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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Mr.Hollywood
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what I think a really shallow mp gives many players is a false feeling of strength thats not really there. it coming more from the equipment than the chops.

I play on a Warburton 5S that has been made slightly deeper, the I.D is around .650 so its not a real small mp. But I play everything on that (jazz, high notes, etudes......) I also own an old 3C that is a very good playing MP. I can play my full high register on that all the way up to DHC. Now I'm not saying that I could take that mp on a gig and play it, I doubt I could last more than 30 or 40 minutes on it, What I'm saying is by not playing a peeshooter my chops have developed over the years to the point where I can play my full range on a large mp (theres no "sizzle" in the sound , but the all the notes are there)

Hats off to you or anyone else that can play demanding commercial music on a large mp.

CLB
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr.Hollywood wrote:
...I also own an old 3C that is a very good playing MP. I can play my full high register on that all the way up to DHC. Now I'm not saying that I could take that mp on a gig and play it, I doubt I could last more than 30 or 40 minutes on it, What I'm saying is by not playing a peeshooter my chops have developed over the years to the point where I can play my full range on a large mp (theres no "sizzle" in the sound , but the all the notes are there)

Hats off to you or anyone else that can play demanding commercial music on a large mp.

CLB


I feel the same way - I've always found that I can play pretty much up to the same high notes on any mouthpiece - but with bigger and deeper ones, there goes the sizzle and there goes the endurance. Once, when I was on "Grease" where I normally played my Reeves 43C (which is just about as small and shallow as I play), just for kicks I tried playing the Overture on my Mt Vernon 1B clone. Before I was halfway through it, I was fumbling in a panic for my Reeves piece...
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'd like a clarification on the CG personal mouthpieces. the marcinkiewicz CG pieces are all 17.32mm.... a large 1 size... and the kanstul CG personal is listed as 16.00mm, call it a 10.5.
it really makes no sense that these are being produced close to the extreme ends of size and makes me doubt whether the actual products are those sizes.
kanstul's CG3 is about a 7 and going on specs alone seems like something a person could more easily play.
i had always thought that the CG personal was a 7 size until i checked the measurements.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuck in ny wrote:
i'd like a clarification on the CG personal mouthpieces. the marcinkiewicz CG pieces are all 17.32mm.... a large 1 size... and the kanstul CG personal is listed as 16.00mm, call it a 10.5.
it really makes no sense that these are being produced close to the extreme ends of size and makes me doubt whether the actual products are those sizes.
kanstul's CG3 is about a 7 and going on specs alone seems like something a person could more easily play.
i had always thought that the CG personal was a 7 size until i checked the measurements.


If I had a nickel for every time somebody gave any credence to the inner diameter measurements from different manufacturers...

At what point on the rim or cup is the measurement being taken? At the high point of the rim? 1/10th of a millimeter down in the rim? 63/1000th's of an inch in?

Does anybody STILL not get it?!?!?! YOU CANNOT COMPARE MOUTHPIECE SIZES USING THE MANUFACTURER'S CLAIMED CUP DIAMETERS, AS THERE IS NO STANDARD POINT OF MEASUREMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Okay, rant is over.

So yes, as you suspected, the printed specs aren’t reliable.

Use the Kanstul Comparator and you'll find that the original CG Personal does have an inner rim diameter similar to a modern Bach 10-1/2C or an older Bach 7 (the modern Bach 7 rim size has grown a bit).

The Marcinkiewicz versions have about the same diameter as the originals, but they've put the CG Personal rim contour and size on both their Claude Gordon P and their Claude Gordon 3 for compatibility between the two (so if one wanted to, they could use the P for normal playing and the 3 for Piccolo trumpet of Marching Band, or Lead playing in a jazz band). While this is not something Claude would condone, many people like using the same rim with different cup depths for different styles of playing.

Note that the original CG3 and CG Personal are very close in terms of cup diameter, with just slightly different rim contours. As such, Marcinkiewicz’s decision to merge the rim designs into the CG P rim design does make some sense (unless you are in love with the original CG3 rim).

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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EdMann
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I purchased a Kanstul CG Personal on a lark a few years back, and while it's certainly a deep piece, you can get there on that thing, and I'm betting that it's more a cause of the rim diameter than the cup depth! Roger Ingram hipped me to that concept from his playing history. Lately I've been messing around on a Bach 3 with a 13 drill. No THAR'S a workout! Same range, but why use that to go upstairs?

I get what Claude was after-- my brother studied with a disciple years ago and played on one, as I recall. Had tremendous range.

Hey, what's Chris doing over here in Pedalville?

ed
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crzytptman
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a Kanstul CGP that I played on for about 2 years. Very easy to play all over, but not a lot of sizzle up high. I have students on the Marc CGP and CG3, and the diameter is definitely bigger than mine. Also, the overall length is longer and the backbore is a little tighter. Not sure which one is the true representation.
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shofar
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:16 am    Post subject: CGPersona; Reply with quote

Hey y'all:

I have a gold plated CGPersonal that Claude had me playing while I studied with him, that I am selling.

PM me if you are interested and I'll send my ph# and email.

Later,

Rog
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crzytptman wrote:
I have a Kanstul CGP that I played on for about 2 years. Very easy to play all over, but not a lot of sizzle up high. I have students on the Marc CGP and CG3, and the diameter is definitely bigger than mine. Also, the overall length is longer and the backbore is a little tighter. Not sure which one is the true representation.


The true representation is the Kanstul CG Personal. Kanstul is the only company that made the CG Personal for Claude.

That said, I think the two Marcinkiewicz mouthpieces are very good mouthpieces and worth trying for anyone interested in these type of mouthpieces.

Best wishes,

John
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crzytptman
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's good to know, John. Thanks. One of my students plays the Marc CGP with 20 drill on a Kanstul Chicago 1001. He sounds awesome. He has the CG3 for jazz band, but hasn't really used it that much. I'm starting to work with him to learn going to a shallower piece. Nice that it has the same rim.
When I was using the Kanstul CGP, I had your Mohan 7S for some sizzle.
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leadtpt1955
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The true representation is the Kanstul CG Personal. Kanstul is the only company that made the CG Personal for Claude.


Not so sure about that, John. I have a Benge mouthpiece that read "Gorden Model S" (the S being for the standard shank, not a shallow cup) This is the only one I've ever seen, and it's significantly different than the Kanstul CG Personal. It would be interesting to have this one scanned for comparison purposes. I wonder if Kanstul would be interested in doing this for the purposes off research?
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homebilly
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i have a few of those S shanked CG3s.

Claude told me the S was for shank. the non S pieces were made for the CG Benge leadpipe gap and the S was for the non Benge horns


i also play a super rare CG5 flügel mouthpiece that has a standard shank. i don't know where i got it but i'd like another one so that i could make it a french taper.

ron
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Big Daddy
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recently...last Friday to be exact, purchased a CG Personal F and really like it. Nice deep V cup. My Getzen 3895 came with a Getzen mouthpiece that was very hard on my lips so I drove down to Kanstul and tried out all their flugelhorn mouthpiece and felt the CG was the best for me. I also have a Monette B6 S1 Flugelhorn mouthpiece on order and will be able to compare to 2 in about 4 weeks. Thumbs up to the CG Personal F. I play a Kanstul G2 and Monette B6 S1 for trumpet and Cornet. My Monette Cornet is on it's way as I write this.
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leadtpt1955
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've got a Benge CG3 S, Kanstul CG3 (which is quite different from the Benge) Benge CG7 with the French taper and, the Benge Gordon Model and Kanstul Personal which is quite different again.

Hmm...that CG5 flugel would be interesting to have scanned and duplicated as well. I'm sure Kanstul could scan it and put a French taper on it.
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leadtpt1955
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

leadtpt1955 wrote:
Quote:
The true representation is the Kanstul CG Personal. Kanstul is the only company that made the CG Personal for Claude.


Not so sure about that, John. I have a Benge mouthpiece that read "Gorden Model S" (the S being for the standard shank, not a shallow cup) This is the only one I've ever seen, and it's significantly different than the Kanstul CG Personal. It would be interesting to have this one scanned for comparison purposes. I wonder if Kanstul would be interested in doing this for the purposes off research?


Sorry John - I didn't read your post at the top of the page accurately where you indicate that Benge did make the Gordon model...my bad!

At any rate, these are all great mouthpieces. It would have been nice if Marcinkiewicz had duplicated all of the original designs vice using a consistent rim diameter and just varying the cup shapes and depths.
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homebilly
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

leadtpt1955 wrote:

Hmm...that CG5 flugel would be interesting to have scanned and duplicated as well. I'm sure Kanstul could scan it and put a French taper on it.


i checked into it but it is very spensivo. i'm looking into their CG5 cornet to see how different it is from my flugel. it's 45 bucks or so to put a sleeve on it to make a french taper.

i used to have a CG10 flügel piece but i can't find it.
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