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tradjazzman Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2002 Posts: 176
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Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:25 pm Post subject: Why is there a "HONEYMOON" with a MPC? |
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Okay guys ........here's a question to run by you. Did you ever give it some thought as to 'WHY IS THERE A HONEYMOON PERIOD" when we switch to a new mouthpiece?
I mean come on man.... what gives? If we put a MPC in and it feels and SOUNDS GREAT the first few days or weeks, then why does it then go south? 2nd come on man ...... Our lips don't change. RIGHT? So if the damn thing fit our lips and face for the first few weeks then why would it not work during the 3rd or 4th or 20th week?
Now I've had a few very talented players tell me that there is a few good weeks then usually a few bad to average weeks , and then things will usually settle in. But "why"??????????? I've never heard anyone adress this before.
I sure wish I knew why 30 years ago. It would have saved me THOUSANDS OF $$$$ (hehe).
Ben |
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Roberts-K Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Aug 2010 Posts: 435 Location: Chattanooga,TN
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Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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I would think depending on how drastic the change was, size wise, there could be some changing of the lips, and the area that vibrates. If you played for a long time on the same piece there would be some adjustment possibly. It has worked that way for me, not to where something worked then didn't, but worked much better once I got used to it. Sometimes it just blows different depending on other factors and you kind of learn how to finesse it.
JMO though! _________________ 2010 Lawler 25th C7 XL
Lalwer LF-1 Flugel |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6210
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Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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After lots of practice, there is a different kind of honeymoon - EVERY mouthpiece works! |
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brassjunkie Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2009 Posts: 399 Location: Aotearoa
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Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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I think sometimes a different mouthpiece lets our chops work in a different way, using the muscles differently. This can feel good or great for a time but the fact that the embouchure is having to work in a slightly different way eventually takes its toll and you hit an rough patch where the adjustment has become a little too much. Presumably if you keep with the piece it comes right.
In my experience a factor that can be very significant is changes in resistance to the total horn + mouthpiece setup that can happen when changing a mouthpiece (or horn for that matter). For example a different mouthpiece with a rounder rim, larger throat or backbore, or a different gap or deeper cup could be a lot more free blowing, which can feel great to play on but in fact creates more work for the chops. Sometimes the extra load on the chops doesn't become noticed till we hit a wall after a few weeks or months even. _________________ Cannonball 789RL
KMI Golden Flair
Conn Director Coprion Bell
Besson Sovereign Flugel
www.jazzinspired.blogspot.com |
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bagmangood Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Feb 2009 Posts: 1359 Location: SF Bay Area
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Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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Part of it is probably not hearing what you don't like about the mouthpiece until you get used to it, and its easier to hear what you do like
Not really sure to be though _________________ More than one trumpet
A "few" mouthpieces |
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oliver king Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Aug 2008 Posts: 1743
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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:54 am Post subject: |
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etc-etc wrote: | After lots of practice, there is a different kind of honeymoon - EVERY mouthpiece works! |
One can hope ....
I'm still on my honeymoon with my current piece ... a Kanstul copy of a MtV Bach 1C on a Warburton 8*, its got a #24 throat. It's been many months.
I've played on an 8*/24 in the past and the Mt V 1C isn't 'too' different in shape/size of the Warburton 3D I was playing before.
This is also the first mouthpiece change I've made since changing mindset about playing ... etc-etc may be right. |
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veery715 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Aug 2007 Posts: 4313 Location: Ithaca NY
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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:52 am Post subject: |
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The biggest factor is us. We KNOW when we have introduced a change and so our perceptions are enhanced, both in terms of what we feel and in how we listen.
After a few weeks that heightened awareness of the changes fades and we go back to the same place mentally we were at before we introduced the new factor. _________________ veery715
Hear me sing!: https://youtu.be/vtJ14MV64WY
Playing trumpet - the healthy way to blow your brains out. |
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laurent Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Posts: 897 Location: Barcelona (Spain)
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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:26 am Post subject: |
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A honeymoon with a mouthpiece? Curious, for me it always has been quite the opposite!
I've usually had to adapt a little - but very little I would say - while switching from a Bach mpc to another, I've had some trouble during about five days when I began to play my Kanstul copy of the Monette B2 - at the begining I even thought that this mpc was absolutely not for me! -, I've had a very hard time when I began to play my two Curry 600 series flugel mpcs - the rim of the 600 series was not for me, and I needed about two months to be really at ease with it...
So a little adaptation to a new mpc I know what it is, a rather hard or very hard time at the begining I know that as well, but a honeymoon... Never experienced such a thing! _________________
Bb Trumpets: Courtois Évolution IV, Stomvi Forte,
Buescher T-120, HT3.
Mpcs: Monette B2s3, Kanstul M-B2.
Flugel: H.Bagué (Yam 631 clone in red brass).
Mpcs: Curry FL & FLD. |
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Vin DiBona Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 1475 Location: OHare area
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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:48 am Post subject: |
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A completely wrong mouthpiece will never be right for the player, regardless of how much one works at it. A rubber mallet is a hammer, but you cannot pound nails in with it, can you? If it is too big, too small, too deep, too shallow, or a mismatch to the horn, you will never reap the benefits of proper practice and grow as a trumpet player.
As a GR dealer, I have 20 or so different mouthpiece sizes and combinations. I will NEVER adapt to a 62M - it is too small and I will also not adapt to a 67.4 C2.8 - it is too large.
Should you select a mouthpiece that is a least close to what you should be playing - no matter who makes it - you will adapt to it, but perhaps it will not be what you are truly capable of playing and you will keep searching.
As far as a honeymoon period goes, remember that even slight changes have a sometimes very subtle change in muscle usage. This is why what works great for a week or two quickly feels like a failure. One must give a mouthpiece at least a couple of months to really ascertain if it is the one for you.
Keep in mind that professional players know exactly what they are looking for and can tell much sooner than the average amateur if something is going to work or not. There is no perfect mouthpiece. Just the ones that do the job in hand and allow a player to perform at one's best.
R. Tomasek |
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scatanas Veteran Member
Joined: 03 Oct 2005 Posts: 299
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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:58 am Post subject: |
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Vin DiBona wrote: | A completely wrong mouthpiece will never be right for the player, regardless of how much one works at it. A rubber mallet is a hammer, but you cannot pound nails in with it, can you? If it is too big, too small, too deep, too shallow, or a mismatch to the horn, you will never reap the benefits of proper practice and grow as a trumpet player.
As a GR dealer, I have 20 or so different mouthpiece sizes and combinations. I will NEVER adapt to a 62M - it is too small and I will also not adapt to a 67.4 C2.8 - it is too large.
Should you select a mouthpiece that is a least close to what you should be playing - no matter who makes it - you will adapt to it, but perhaps it will not be what you are truly capable of playing and you will keep searching.
As far as a honeymoon period goes, remember that even slight changes have a sometimes very subtle change in muscle usage. This is why what works great for a week or two quickly feels like a failure. One must give a mouthpiece at least a couple of months to really ascertain if it is the one for you.
Keep in mind that professional players know exactly what they are looking for and can tell much sooner than the average amateur if something is going to work or not. There is no perfect mouthpiece. Just the ones that do the job in hand and allow a player to perform at one's best.
R. Tomasek |
You've got a point, but on the other side of the equation I think switching a mpc every 3 months is also unproductive. I fell in that trap and ended up with what felt good for a period a time, so i went through about 8 mps in 2 years until i finally realized the nonsense i was doing.
I'd say find a mouthpiece that's pretty good and then stick to it. I did that with the Monette B2S3 Prana, and i don't regret it. I'm finally using just one mouthpiece.
And yes there WERE times AFTER i got it when it felt "not right" for a week or two, but i stuck it out and fought the temptation to switch to a new one,and now it feels like the right mouthpiece all the time. _________________ Martin Bohme Tumultus
Kanstul 1525 |
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Vin DiBona Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 1475 Location: OHare area
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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:28 am Post subject: |
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Switching mouthpieces every few months is counterproductive and I never advise such.
A properly chosen mouthpiece makes playing everything much easier. When working with players in searching for a right GR mouthpiece, we use certain playing tests and these simple tests can be used for any manufacturer.
In every instance, when the right mouthpiece is determined, the player immediately senses and feels which one works best. Sometimes, it is the one they use and not a GR piece.
If it is indeed a new GR piece, my advice to them is to NOT play their previous mouthpiece at all and after a few days or weeks, or months they will hit a wall and will wonder why they (we) chose that mouthpiece. I tell them when this happens - and it invariably does - to remember what it first played like and this ease of playing will come back quickly.
R. Tomasek |
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laurent Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Posts: 897 Location: Barcelona (Spain)
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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:38 am Post subject: |
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scatanas wrote: | I'd say find a mouthpiece that's pretty good and then stick to it. I did that with the Monette B2S3 Prana, and i don't regret it. I'm finally using just one mouthpiece.
And yes there WERE times AFTER i got it when it felt "not right" for a week or two, but i stuck it out and fought the temptation to switch to a new one,and now it feels like the right mouthpiece all the time. |
Almost exactly same experience for me with the Kanstul M-B2! The only difference is that I had to adapt only at the begining - normal, I had never played a mpc of this very special kind before! -, and then as I recall, it has been only better and better.
Now I play this mpc almost all the time, it's simply THE mpc that gives me the most natural feeling - like if it were part of the trumpet, part of my lips, or maybe better... part of both!
Sometimes I play as well a Bach 5V, that has also a pretty open feel and provides a darker sound. But in any case, no more need of my other 10 or so mpcs! _________________
Bb Trumpets: Courtois Évolution IV, Stomvi Forte,
Buescher T-120, HT3.
Mpcs: Monette B2s3, Kanstul M-B2.
Flugel: H.Bagué (Yam 631 clone in red brass).
Mpcs: Curry FL & FLD. |
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brassjunkie Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2009 Posts: 399 Location: Aotearoa
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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:56 am Post subject: |
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I have experienced both the honeymoon syndrome and the opposite when I decided to go to a really small IRD piece. It was a difficult for a few weeks, my lips felt trapped and pinched but once they adjusted to the new way of working it turned out well....great boost to endurance, finally I could last out my gigs _________________ Cannonball 789RL
KMI Golden Flair
Conn Director Coprion Bell
Besson Sovereign Flugel
www.jazzinspired.blogspot.com |
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Bruce Lee Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jul 2003 Posts: 759 Location: Rochester, NY
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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:59 am Post subject: |
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When you change mouthpieces, you initially play the new mouthpiece with the muscle memory that your embouchure muscles have used to play your previous mouthpiece. Even if the new mouthpiece shares similarities to what you were using, and your previous mouthpiece was fairly efficient for you, there will still be an acclimation period while your embouchure muscles adapt to the new mouthpiece. This period of time is generally around 3 weeks, to as much as 6 weeks, for an active player.
I agree with Rich, wholeheartedly... play the new mouthpiece exclusively, so that you allow your embouchure the time it needs to adapt to a new mouthpiece, and to be able to take advantage of every nuance that the new mouthpiece promises you. The more you A-B the new mouthpiece with the old, the longer the acclimation period will take.
It's very important to be realistic about the acclimation period, because as good as a mouthpiece may feel initially, or as good as it performs initially, that will change. If you've been able to to work with a competent mouthpiece consultant, you have a much greater chance of ending up with a mouthpiece that will indeed be a great match to you, with your horn, and for the type of music that you play predominately.
If you're not happy with your results following the acclimation period, use it as a learning experience. Take notes, and most importantly, be honest about your results. Even if you're working with a competent mouthpiece consultant, their suggestions depend upon your ability to give them an honest assessment of your playing.
Keep in mind, there is no "magic bullet".
Ciao,
Bruce _________________ teatro333@gmail.com
Please contact me for BE Lessons |
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laurent Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Posts: 897 Location: Barcelona (Spain)
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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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Vin DiBona wrote: | A completely wrong mouthpiece will never be right for the player, regardless of how much one works at it. A rubber mallet is a hammer, but you cannot pound nails in with it, can you? If it is too big, too small, too deep, too shallow, or a mismatch to the horn, you will never reap the benefits of proper practice and grow as a trumpet player. |
Hum... Maybe, but WHAT is a "completely wrong" mouthpiece?
Like I've said I needed two months to adapt to my Curry 600 series flugel pieces - lot of time, yes! -, but now I'm completely at ease with them, exactly the same way than I was before with my former flugel mpc.
And I still play from time to time my first flugel mpc because it has a really different sound, and I do it with the same ease than before.
I own as well two very shallow trumpet pieces: a Bach 3F, and a Stölzel DK (double cup).
When I received these mpcs I was almost unable to play them, because my lips were touching the bottom of the cup and I couldn't avoid it!
Playing them from time to time though, in a few months I got progressively better and better results, and now these pieces are two very nice picc mpcs, both good sounding although in two absolutely different ways, and very in tune.
On the picc the DK has a very warm and dark sound, but the sound I got from the Bach 3F at the begining was awfully agressive. I now am able to control it very well, and now it's just... precise, expressive and yes bright, but no more a drill sound at all!
So you see, a few examples of mouthpieces that for me were awful at the begining, and with some effort and patience - especially patience, indeed -, became finally wonderful! _________________
Bb Trumpets: Courtois Évolution IV, Stomvi Forte,
Buescher T-120, HT3.
Mpcs: Monette B2s3, Kanstul M-B2.
Flugel: H.Bagué (Yam 631 clone in red brass).
Mpcs: Curry FL & FLD.
Last edited by laurent on Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Pops Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Sep 2002 Posts: 2039 Location: Dallas (Grand Prairie), Texas
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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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Many players have a honeymoon with new mouthpieces and then things get hard again.
When we are trying a new mouthpiece we THINK about everything we do.
We are comparing every technique to the old mouthpiece.
We think so much that we improve our support, arch, compression...
When the new wears off we go back to auto pilot and get physically sloppy so the playing is harder again. _________________ Clint 'Pops' McLaughlin
You can always Google me.
50 years Teaching. Teaching and writing trumpet books is ALL I do.
7,000 pages of free music. Trumpet Books, Skype Lessons: www.BbTrumpet.com |
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dracul Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2004 Posts: 155
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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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It's because all the muscles in our embouchure are still geared for the old mouthpiece...once they adapt and change to the new mouthpiece things settle in again. Honey Moons suck....thay only point out had ****ty reality is _________________ Safari never ends
Schilke XA1
Kanstul ZKF 1525 |
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Vin DiBona Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 1475 Location: OHare area
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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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Laurent, try a Schilke 24 for a while and for the other extreme try a Cat Anderson model, which is considerably smaller than a Schilke 5A4. I would be willing to bet you would not be able to adjust to them to the extent you would still be a competent player.
There are many issues to consider regarding a truly "wrong" mouthpiece. As Pops states, when you think about what the mouthpiece is doing, it is controlling you, not the other way around. Music must flow without thinking about equipment. I know more than a few great Chicago players and equipment is not on their mind when performing.
Consider yourself fortunate that you can do what most players cannot.
Here is a link to photos of Cat's mouthpiece.
http://abel.hive.no/trumpet/cat_anderson/
There is a Bach 3 model for contrast and a Schilke 24 makes the rather large volume Bach 3 look on the small side.
R. Tomasek |
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Capt.Kirk Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2009 Posts: 5792
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Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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First believe it or not their is a lot of things we do almost on autopilot once we are experienced player's. When you make a sudden change it forces the parts of the brain that normally are a sleep at the wheel so to speak to wake up and be active. This put's you almost in a phase that is both learning phase and takes advantage of your experience. Once the novelty is gone those parts of the brain start to go back to sleep again. As they do you go from a very active and engaged playing style back to your normal auto-pilot style of playing. Not everyone has a positive "Honeymoon" phase some people have just the opposite. Generally you will fall into one of the two camps and stay their most of if not your entire life. Why? Just how your brain is wired.
Generaly for me I do not have that type of effect. If a MP fells bad and does not play well for me generally nothing will make that change for me other then lot's of practice on that piece but ti will never feel fantastic or natural to me even if I regain my range and sound etc.....I am confident anyone if they spent enough time on it could even master the old cookie cutter Clarke type pieces. That does not mean it would be the ideal for you just because you can master a bad MP for you. It also does not mean that yo might not gain new skills and experience by mastering a bad MP then returning to one that is a better fit. The thing is when it comes to the nerviness system and how it wired you are better off not introducing anything that will negatively rewire your embouchure. Nothing about the horn is more intimate then what you press up against your lips.
The more densely packed an area is with nerves the greater the chunk of brain used to monitor it and control it. You hands, lips, hearing take up a lot of processing power in the brain much more so then your leg's or chest or arms for instance. _________________ The only easy day was yesterday! |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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veery715 wrote: | The biggest factor is us. We KNOW when we have introduced a change and so our perceptions are enhanced, both in terms of what we feel and in how we listen.
After a few weeks that heightened awareness of the changes fades and we go back to the same place mentally we were at before we introduced the new factor. |
I think Veery nailed it.
Whether it's a mpce or horn, sometimes it's as much perception as reality. I think this also holds true for horn modifications, and for accessories like weighted caps, etc. If we THINK it feels different / better, it often does.
Brad361 |
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