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mrgrimm18 Regular Member
Joined: 12 Jul 2012 Posts: 57
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Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:51 am Post subject: lower lip discomfort/pain |
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hi guys so i recently started feeling lower lip discomfort and kinda feels like pain when i play the trumpet.....what can it be?.....last week i played my first gig it was 4 hours total...that next day my lips were stiff and thts when the pain began |
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razeontherock Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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Work through it ... low, quiet |
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mrgrimm18 Regular Member
Joined: 12 Jul 2012 Posts: 57
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Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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thanks, but do you think i might have casue damaged to my lower lip? razeontherock wrote: | Work through it ... low, quiet |
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RandyTX Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Posts: 5299 Location: Central Texas
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Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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Of course you did, otherwise you wouldn't be in pain. However, it's a pretty good bet that you'll recover, you probably just need some rest and soft practice.
The conclusion you might draw from this is you haven't worked up to playing 4 hour gigs yet. _________________ "Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away." |
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mrgrimm18 Regular Member
Joined: 12 Jul 2012 Posts: 57
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Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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yea ur rigth thanks RandyTX wrote: | Of course you did, otherwise you wouldn't be in pain. However, it's a pretty good bet that you'll recover, you probably just need some rest and soft practice.
The conclusion you might draw from this is you haven't worked up to playing 4 hour gigs yet. |
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razeontherock Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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RandyTX wrote: |
The conclusion you might draw from this is you haven't worked up to playing 4 hour gigs yet. |
It's also quite possible that some aspect of the playing system falls apart during performance, so that he's not playing the way he practices. Either way, the answer is to keep plugging ... |
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mrgrimm18 Regular Member
Joined: 12 Jul 2012 Posts: 57
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Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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you deserve a 10 thank you for your advice razeontherock wrote: | RandyTX wrote: |
The conclusion you might draw from this is you haven't worked up to playing 4 hour gigs yet. |
It's also quite possible that some aspect of the playing system falls apart during performance, so that he's not playing the way he practices. Either way, the answer is to keep plugging ... |
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mcgovnor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Aug 2003 Posts: 2607 Location: ny ny
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Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:30 pm Post subject: Randy |
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nothin' like horse sense..the body loves to heal itself. As one who has had teeth go into the skin surface , mis fit bridges, teeth too tall placed..too wide..movement..numbness..take your pinkie out of the ring when u practice. Find a 3 session warm up..like Schlossberg..Clarke...Colin..rest twice as much as u play...buy a "soundback"..get some DCT and put it on your lips all day..free buzz about 20 minutes a day..in the morning and last thing..and in one to two weeks it will be ok. Stick to a regular routine of healing exercises, to increase buzz and circulation.. |
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royjohn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2005 Posts: 2272 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
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Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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mrgrimm,
I'm going to make one comment here and then leave you and the others to discuss. I see about a dozen threads of yours since you joined on July 12 and if one reads carefully, all of them have to do with lip injury, overplaying, 4 to 6 hour gigs, stiffness and pain. I think I read them all when you wrote them and I just reviewed them to make sure I remembered right. I don't think you are listening to what people in these threads are trying to tell you.
There are very few people who can play a four hour gig. You need to have a solid technique and endurance built up gradually by consistent graduated practice. I'd assume this would take at least two to four years of daily careful practice starting today. You're obviously not ready for what you're doing to yourself. Stiffness, pain, having to warm up extensively to get the stiffness and swelling out, etc. --- all things you've talked about in the past two months --- are signs that you are abusing your chops continually. The operative adages are "rest as much as you play" and "build up, don't tear down." In your practice you should feel fresh and rested and you should stop playing the minute that you start to feel tired, not an hour after this point.
I doubt you are going to get anywhere without changing your approach drastically. But good luck. I"ll be interested to see a report of your progress in six months to a year. _________________ royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . . |
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mcgovnor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Aug 2003 Posts: 2607 Location: ny ny
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:55 am Post subject: gigs |
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May I be a frank expositor of the real playing world.
There are days, and there used to be many days, when a 10 hour playing day was common, amongst professionals, and some wanna be players.
It is common to rehearse for 4 hours, and then perform an opening or a show. Often, rehearsals may go on for days. Many days, I and thousands of others have gotten up at 6 to warm up, on and off, for a couple of hours before going out to record, for 8 hours, followed by a 5 or six hour live performance, and gotten up the next day to do the same. I can't count the days, when in between gigs, we warmed down and re upped, in the car, or arrived early and went off to get it happening again. A player must learn how to practice, in a way where every note and every exercise and routine in building the machine. Refining it. Re aligning it. Oiling it. Strengthening it. And when the scenes come, and they will, a player must learn how to address them, how to get through and out of them. Often, this involves more playing, but wise playing, than less. Having suffered many injuries due to dental work and accidents, these issues must be faced, addressed, and through wisdom and will, overcome..sometimes, and as we age, daily. |
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royjohn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2005 Posts: 2272 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:11 am Post subject: |
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mcgovenor,
While I don't play professionally, I do understand the rigors of the world of the working professional trumpeter. Maybe it would help if you expounded a little more on what it took to get to the place where you could play 10 hours in a day or what ways you used to cheat enough to get through a 4 to 6 hour gig.
My comment to mrgrimm18 and my point is that the developing player or the player who doesn't have all his technique ducks completely in a row is impeding his progress, possibly tearing down his embouchure physically and very probably developing bad habits (such as excessive mpc pressure) by taking on an amount or type of playing for which he isn't ready and playing on tired and/or damaged lips a lot of the time.
If you read mrgrimm18's threads since joining TH on July 12, there's a complaint about pain or stiffness or an extended warmup in each one and frequent references to long gigs. About every week or two.
I'm not down on mrgrimm18, just concerned for him and other players in similar situations. It reminds me of the old vaudeville joke:
PATIENT: Doc, it hoits if I do dis.
DOCTOR: Well, den don' do dat!
So you tell me, mcgovenor, how do you survive and improve if you are playing so much and so hard that you take days to recover every week? And how much training does it take to get to the point where you can take on a 4 to 6 hour gig and not have it hurt you in the long run? _________________ royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . . |
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mcgovnor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Aug 2003 Posts: 2607 Location: ny ny
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:18 am Post subject: truth be told |
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You miss the point, entirely. It is not about playing hard. It is about knowing what the value of every routine, every rest, every etude, every exercise is, and how to use them. It is not about playing hard and laying off.
It is about playing smart, and not having to. |
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mrgrimm18 Regular Member
Joined: 12 Jul 2012 Posts: 57
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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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i understand you are rying to help me but its just diffucult having to manage it right but i guess i need to do it now before it happens again like my old embouchure ....right now my lips feel weird and i assume i need to give them rest because a week before i played that first gig , i had been practicing and taking breaks every 20 mins or so and the next day my lips would feel fresh . i just hope i didnt mess them up ....as for i was saying about my lips feeling weird, should i rest for a few days and then come back and practice like i was doing it ? or should i keep practicing ? thanks royjohn wrote: | mcgovenor,
While I don't play professionally, I do understand the rigors of the world of the working professional trumpeter. Maybe it would help if you expounded a little more on what it took to get to the place where you could play 10 hours in a day or what ways you used to cheat enough to get through a 4 to 6 hour gig.
My comment to mrgrimm18 and my point is that the developing player or the player who doesn't have all his technique ducks completely in a row is impeding his progress, possibly tearing down his embouchure physically and very probably developing bad habits (such as excessive mpc pressure) by taking on an amount or type of playing for which he isn't ready and playing on tired and/or damaged lips a lot of the time.
If you read mrgrimm18's threads since joining TH on July 12, there's a complaint about pain or stiffness or an extended warmup in each one and frequent references to long gigs. About every week or two.
I'm not down on mrgrimm18, just concerned for him and other players in similar situations. It reminds me of the old vaudeville joke:
PATIENT: Doc, it hoits if I do dis.
DOCTOR: Well, den don' do dat!
So you tell me, mcgovenor, how do you survive and improve if you are playing so much and so hard that you take days to recover every week? And how much training does it take to get to the point where you can take on a 4 to 6 hour gig and not have it hurt you in the long run? |
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mcgovnor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Aug 2003 Posts: 2607 Location: ny ny
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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:52 pm Post subject: play |
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Well, it's late..but..do you have any markings from your teeth, on your bottom lip? They would appear as horizontal lines. They would hurt. Your bottom lip is swollen. If you don't have a buzzing devise, get one. I suggest the buzz aid on the Jacobs sight..song and wind is the sight. Get the "buzzing book"..just google the title..and do the first 5 or 6 exercises, twice each, resting in between...only buzzing, not on the horn. Rest an hour, and then begin with a semi long tone warm up..moving in half steps..progressively on each bugle on the horn. Rest and then do Clarke, tongue and slur..rest some lip flexibility..rest..some easy etudes in the middle of the horn.
Get some DCT lip ointment, and keep it on your bottom lip at all times. |
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royjohn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2005 Posts: 2272 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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PM sent to the OP _________________ royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . . |
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mrgrimm18 Regular Member
Joined: 12 Jul 2012 Posts: 57
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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:47 pm Post subject: Re: play |
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Umm no ive checked and its just kinda red but i dont see any indents of my teeth.i dont use much pressure to be honest but maybe the 4 hours i worked last week was the cause of all this ... What you think? I gently squeezw my bottom lip but feel no pain or discomfort , only when i play mcgovnor wrote: | Well, it's late..but..do you have any markings from your teeth, on your bottom lip? They would appear as horizontal lines. They would hurt. Your bottom lip is swollen. If you don't have a buzzing devise, get one. I suggest the buzz aid on the Jacobs sight..song and wind is the sight. Get the "buzzing book"..just google the title..and do the first 5 or 6 exercises, twice each, resting in between...only buzzing, not on the horn. Rest an hour, and then begin with a semi long tone warm up..moving in half steps..progressively on each bugle on the horn. Rest and then do Clarke, tongue and slur..rest some lip flexibility..rest..some easy etudes in the middle of the horn.
Get some DCT lip ointment, and keep it on your bottom lip at all times. |
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mcgovnor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Aug 2003 Posts: 2607 Location: ny ny
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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:53 am Post subject: if |
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if you feel NO discomfort when u touch or squeeze your lip, (away from the horn, in other words)..that's a very good sign. No indents on the bottom lip is also a very good sign.
If u feel no pain when you put your lips is in an "mmmmm" position and press them together, that's a good sign.
Please be patient with my questions..Is the rim and cup of your mouthpiece missing silver plating? Is the rim or cup of your mouthpiece pitted, or scratched, or scarred? When you put the mp up and feel pain, is it a stinging type, like a cut, or a deeper no specific spread out type, like a bruise..? How long have u been playing? What do you practice, mostly? What is a typical practice session, over the course of the day, like? What mouthpiece do you use? What horn do you use?Thanks..If comfortable, answer right here..and if you would like to hear me play, I have recording session files, here,I can email you.. and older ones on Utube.."Love For Sale" with Buddy Rich on BBC as soloist is among the better ones..also with Jay Black,"Be My Love" lead trumpet, arranger and soloist(and water boy:) More importantly, know my only concern is helping you. As one who has suffered lip injury numerous times, due to a accidents, dentists and foolishness,over a 45 year history, I hear you. I am not interested in engaging in discussions or arguments with other TH members, just helping you out, if possible. However, maybe someone else with a similar problem will glean something from our exchange.:)Thanks. |
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mrgrimm18 Regular Member
Joined: 12 Jul 2012 Posts: 57
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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:35 pm Post subject: Re: if |
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Well i dont feel any pain until i start playing , it feels like a bruise its weird. Idk if it might be my gums that hurt instead , its hard to know which one is it. I did drop my mp twice and it gas indents on it and when i place the mp on the horn, i make sure that the indents are facing down so that it hits my bottom lip. I think that is the problem? mcgovnor wrote: | if you feel NO discomfort when u touch or squeeze your lip, (away from the horn, in other words)..that's a very good sign. No indents on the bottom lip is also a very good sign.
If u feel no pain when you put your lips is in an "mmmmm" position and press them together, that's a good sign.
Please be patient with my questions..Is the rim and cup of your mouthpiece missing silver plating? Is the rim or cup of your mouthpiece pitted, or scratched, or scarred? When you put the mp up and feel pain, is it a stinging type, like a cut, or a deeper no specific spread out type, like a bruise..? How long have u been playing? What do you practice, mostly? What is a typical practice session, over the course of the day, like? What mouthpiece do you use? What horn do you use?Thanks..If comfortable, answer right here..and if you would like to hear me play, I have recording session files, here,I can email you.. and older ones on Utube.."Love For Sale" with Buddy Rich on BBC as soloist is among the better ones..also with Jay Black,"Be My Love" lead trumpet, arranger and soloist(and water boy:) More importantly, know my only concern is helping you. As one who has suffered lip injury numerous times, due to a accidents, dentists and foolishness,over a 45 year history, I hear you. I am not interested in engaging in discussions or arguments with other TH members, just helping you out, if possible. However, maybe someone else with a similar problem will glean something from our exchange.:)Thanks. |
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mcgovnor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Aug 2003 Posts: 2607 Location: ny ny
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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:40 pm Post subject: well |
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If you can't tell if it's your gums or lips..I think u might attempt to discern which it is.
And yes, if you turn the indents to the bottom and you bottom lip hurts..it could be it.
Either get a new mp, or turn them to the left side, so neither lip gets them. |
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mrgrimm18 Regular Member
Joined: 12 Jul 2012 Posts: 57
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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:07 pm Post subject: Re: well |
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yea okay im gonna try that to see if it fixes the problem.. either way today i took the day off and tomorrow im gonna get back at it . thank god i dont work on saturday .....thanks for all your useful help mcgovnor wrote: | If you can't tell if it's your gums or lips..I think u might attempt to discern which it is.
And yes, if you turn the indents to the bottom and you bottom lip hurts..it could be it.
Either get a new mp, or turn them to the left side, so neither lip gets them. |
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