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trackday Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Mar 2013 Posts: 184
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Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:05 pm Post subject: Bach with C and Bb slides |
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Is there anything wrong with a Bach with C and Bb slides? If not, why are there not more sold like that?? |
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LH123 Regular Member
Joined: 24 May 2012 Posts: 76
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Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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A multi-keyed instrument is always a big compromise - usually these play OK in one key and awfully in the other. Any serious performer is going to want dedicated C and Bb trumpets, not a combo. |
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dmessier New Member
Joined: 09 Mar 2013 Posts: 5
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Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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I have a Bach C with full length 25S leadpipe. In this configuration, the Bb slides actually work out surprisingly well. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8939 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe not Bach but there are manufacturer's who make dual-key Bb/C trumpets. Check out the relatively new one by Kanstul. From what's been posted here folks tend to consider it acceptable but not on par with the dedicated key horns. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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VetPsychWars Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 7196 Location: Greenfield WI
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Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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I was talking with Steve Winans about vintage Buescher horns, and he mentioned that he was working on a Parlor Grand C/Bb/A and that he was surprised to find that it played lots better in C than it did in Bb.
Just an amusing anecdote, those horns are very hard to find.
Tom _________________ 1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1 |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8348 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:36 pm Post subject: Re: Bach with C and Bb slides |
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trackday wrote: | Is there anything wrong with a Bach with C and Bb slides? If not, why are there not more sold like that?? |
Because 95% of Bach C's play like crap in Bb. Well, if not crap, they're at least very mediocre.
Those slides are sold to folks who think - "Gee, that'll be useful." It sounds cool and handy. Then they put them in and realize that their old TR300 or Old Ambassador plays 2-3 times better than their Bach C does in Bb, let alone their Strad. Then the slides sit in the case for 20 years. When the Bach C gets sold, the owner tosses them in the deal, because they're of no use to them anymore. Or they get sold without the horn in a set. Rinse and repeat.
The real Bach Bb slides are a set of 4 slides, not just the tuning slide - for your information. Some are floating out there with just the one slide, but there were 3 others originally. It's really bad if you just use the tuning slide by itself.
LH123 wrote: | A multi-keyed instrument is always a big compromise - usually these play OK in one key and awfully in the other. Any serious performer is going to want dedicated C and Bb trumpets, not a combo. |
Exactly. There are probably some exceptions, but this is the rule. The exceptions are few and far between (thus, them being exceptions). I don't doubt that a solitary trumpet or model plays well in both Bb and C, but there are very few that do so.
Plus, the Bach C isn't even a multi-keyed instrument. It's a C trumpet. Put Bb slides on it and it's a C trumpet that's got longer slides on it.
There's more differences between a good C and a good Bb than the length of the slides. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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Lawler Bb Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2002 Posts: 1143 Location: Milwaukee, WI
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lgt0412 Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Mar 2012 Posts: 462 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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I played a Strad C (239 bell) with Bb slides all through high school. At the time, never having had lessons I didn't realize how hard I was having to work to play it in tune. When I got to college the first thing my teacher told me to do was to buy a real Bb. It was amazing how easy it was to play in tune once I did! lol ..... I do think it made me more sensitive to being in tune though. Something I am thankful for now!! _________________ Van Laar B6
Bach LR19043B
Kanstul 1600
Conn 38B
Van Laar BR3 Flugel
Blessing Super Artist cornet
Greg Black Mouthpieces |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9388 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I used to have a set of Bach Bb slides for my Bach Strad C trumpet. It was a 239 with the standard 25C mouthpipe. It was only a so-so Bb instrument with the slides, so I bought a good Bb trumpet and sold the slides on eBay (after they had sat in the closet for 15 years). I got almost 3 times what I originally paid for them, so no harm done... _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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lgt0412 Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Mar 2012 Posts: 462 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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Dale Proctor wrote: | so I bought a good Bb trumpet and sold the slides on eBay (after they had sat in the closet for 15 years). I got almost 3 times what I originally paid for them |
I traded my slides (plus a few mouthpieces) to Dillon Music for a Torpedobag classic. One of the best deals I've ever made! lol _________________ Van Laar B6
Bach LR19043B
Kanstul 1600
Conn 38B
Van Laar BR3 Flugel
Blessing Super Artist cornet
Greg Black Mouthpieces |
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jpdtpt Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Mar 2003 Posts: 107 Location: New Jersey
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:47 am Post subject: |
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I've never played a C horn with appropriate Bb slides, (except to play test for fun) but once in a while at church, I will put my Bach Bb slide in my Bach C, and use it as a B trumpet, when the organist plays hymns down a half step, and I don't want to sight-transpose. Generally, it plays better in B than in C, and although I don't have valve slides for it, I pull the 2nd slide a bit, and hold the others out a bit more than I normally might.
John D. |
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benlewis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Jan 2004 Posts: 1019 Location: Memphis, TN
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:59 am Post subject: |
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The Schilke system of Bb to C is very good. While I was still and active duty Navy musician, I bought a CX with Bb slides that was very good on both sides. The reason the Bachs play poorly in Bb is the the gap at the tuning slide is the same for Bb and C; Schilke uses two extension tubes and the existing tuning slide, rather than just one long slide. This puts the gaps exactly where they would be if the horn was constructed in Bb. I was frankly surprised at how well the horn played. Unfortunately, while the intonation and evenness of the horn was great (as I feel is true of all Schilke products), I needed a different sound for C.
I believe if you had one of the fine craftsmen such as Jim Becker or Ken Larson construct a set of extension tubes for a Bach, it would play much better in Bb.
IMHO
Ben |
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trackday Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Mar 2013 Posts: 184
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:05 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the replies.
There is an Olds LA Ambassador on ebay that was 'converted' from Bb to C. Of the restoration, it says 'This horn has been Completely RESTORED and then MODIFIED at Crown Resources Laboratory in Glens Falls, NY.'
Though I don't doubt they are qualified, is this a suspect conversion? Still better to go with a C trumpet that was born a C? |
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richardwy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Feb 2006 Posts: 4308 Location: Casper, WY - The Gotham of the Prarie
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:57 am Post subject: |
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trackday wrote: | Still better to go with a C trumpet that was born a C? |
Yup _________________ 1972 Selmer Radial |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8939 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:47 am Post subject: |
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A good C is hard to find and a less than ideal one will make you hate life. I advise that you buy a C from a major manufacturer and even then only after trying a big pile of them. The only other safe option is to get a conversion from a major shop with a strong reputation for doing so like Malone or Larson. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Ed Kennedy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 3187
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:05 am Post subject: |
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benlewis wrote: | The Schilke system of Bb to C is very good. While I was still and active duty Navy musician, I bought a CX with Bb slides that was very good on both sides. The reason the Bachs play poorly in Bb is the the gap at the tuning slide is the same for Bb and C; Schilke uses two extension tubes and the existing tuning slide, rather than just one long slide. This puts the gaps exactly where they would be if the horn was constructed in Bb. I was frankly surprised at how well the horn played. Unfortunately, while the intonation and evenness of the horn was great (as I feel is true of all Schilke products), I needed a different sound for C.
I believe if you had one of the fine craftsmen such as Jim Becker or Ken Larson construct a set of extension tubes for a Bach, it would play much better in Bb.
IMHO
Ben |
When I was at U of Minnesota in the late '60's a number of Steve Chenette's students bought schilke C's with the Bb slides and they worked really well. The symphony was using C7's (M bore)so that was the most popular model. One friend got a C5 (L bore) sounded fine on it.
The slide extinsions in conjunction with the long reverse leadpipe made the system work really well. |
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Trombacan Veteran Member
Joined: 30 Nov 2009 Posts: 102 Location: Canada
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:16 am Post subject: Bb/C |
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Quote: | Still better to go with a C trumpet that was born a C? |
Absolutely!
I had a colleague that played his Bach Bb/C in the section for an opera week - one of the longest weeks of my life |
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Yogadidit Regular Member
Joined: 27 Feb 2009 Posts: 91 Location: Charlotte, NC
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:00 am Post subject: |
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I have a MV Bach C with Bb slides. I struggled with intonation for years before getting a used Schilke and realized how much easier it was to stay in tune. I now only play the Bach horn in C. Get a large bore C, even if you normally play a ML bore horn. Then decide if you need a different mouthpiece for your C versus the Bb that you also play. _________________ Yamaha 8310Z
Schilke B4L, B6L, B7L
Bach Artisan
MV Bach 239C/Bb
Yamaha 6330II Cornet
Getzen 895 Eterna Flugel
Dillon Piccolo |
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dmamazon Veteran Member
Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 177 Location: Hilliard, Ohio
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:34 am Post subject: |
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To add to the above poster, M/K drawing makes the C to Bb set and it seems to have some great reviews..
I want to try it but don't have an extra $600 or so lying around lol! Would love to hear my Bach Philadelphia with those slides.
http://www.mkdrawing.com/bach.html
I've only tried two horns with the Bach Bb/C slides..both 229 bell horns. The C side was ok...the Bb side..well...was very weird on BOTH horns...and the intonation was very poor. |
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trackday Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Mar 2013 Posts: 184
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:53 am Post subject: |
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You are a very helpful crowd. I have ordered a C trumpet. Thank you. |
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