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zackh411 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 May 2011 Posts: 1886 Location: Saint Louis MO
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Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:22 am Post subject: High Note Nomenclature |
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I once posted a video on Youtube where I play a triple high G (that is to say, the G above double high C). Almost immediately someone commented something along the lines of "sorry to burst your bubble, but that's only double high G." Well... ONLY double G... ha!
Anyhow, it got me thinking: there seem to be a few conflicting viewpoints as to what to call certain notes. I thought it might be fun to take a poll.
My own personal viewpoint is that each "level" of note ought to start at F and go up to the next E. For instance, notes from first space F to the top space E we just call "E," or "C," or "A," or whatever. Basically like in this picture:
I like this way because every "level" of notes is it's own octave... basically it's a little less arbitrary. Note that I include low F in the "low" category instead of calling it a pedal tone. There are two reasons. Firstly, I think it would be dumb for notes to go from F# to F. If we did it that way, then F on top of the staff would be "F," but F# on top of the staff would be "high F#." That seems dumb. Secondly, the low F can be played without bending the pitch by using 123+Trigger.
So there's my 2 cents. What's your opinion? After I get a few responses I'll start up a poll. I'm just not sure what to set up as the options yet, so I'm waiting for a few opinions first.
Edit: What's the point? Just cuz. _________________ ~Zack
Lead Piece: Custom PickettBrass
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VetPsychWars Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 7196 Location: Greenfield WI
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Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:10 am Post subject: |
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I, like many, I'm sure, learned it as you did, in school. I had never heard of anything different until I encountered this forum.
I think some high-note jockeys decided that this nomenclature is what they say it is, and not what the rest of us learned.
Tom _________________ 1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1 |
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trumpetteacher1 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 3404 Location: Garland, Texas
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Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:45 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | I think some high-note jockeys decided that this nomenclature is what they say it is, and not what the rest of us learned.
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Throuout my formative years, including college, virtually all the players I met who could play a G above hich C - including old pros like Claude Gordon and his peers - simply called it high G.
Most of the players who couldn't play the note called it double G.
I still call it a high G. Personal bias aside, it's not worth the trouble to argue about. Do a search. This topic has been done to death on TH.
Jeff |
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tommy t. Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Mar 2002 Posts: 2599 Location: Wasatch Mountains
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Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:59 am Post subject: |
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I have argued at length, sometimes on TH, that the only logical system is one that starts with F# below the staff as "low F#," the "F#" in first space, "high F# on the top line,"etc.
It is, however, as clear to me as anything related to music can be that the guys and gals in the U.S. that make a living playing up there tend overwhelmingly to start the "double octave" at the A above the 4th ledger line.
I used to resist that as really indefensible as a matter logic and as a matter of English usage.
Now I can play that A on a regular basis and, now, I am perfectly happy with the fact that those who only claim the G can't claim "the double."
Tommy T. _________________ Actually, I hate music. I just do this for the money. |
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jiarby Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2011 Posts: 1188
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Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:03 am Post subject: |
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Classically trained musicians generally think the break between changing the octaves happens on "C". C1, C2, C3, etc... So THAT is why "Dubba-Nazis" (DN's for short!) complain when someone says that a 4th ledger line high G is a "Dubba G!!!" (A "dubba-note" must always have exclamation point as closing punctuation). You can't blame the "DN's"... it is how they were trained, and mathematically they are correct.
Musicians all play instruments in different keys and with different ranges so it is important to have a uniform common standard for naming pitches so we all know what note someone is talking about. Suppose Gordon Goodwin just wrote "Play a Dubba-G Wayne!" on the score instead of using music notation. What note should he play?? the 4th ledger line G? Or the one an octave higher?
As a younger trumpet player (teens) someone explained to me that the 4th ledger line G was the first "Dubba-Note" (I know, another "DN" acronym, but don't get confused!) because it was the SECOND G above the staff. the F immediately below it was merely a "High F".
While in college I knew a famous purveyor of "Dubba & Trippa Notes" whom would definitely consider that G above DHC as a "Trippa-G".
Another former UNT lead player also refers to that note as a "Trippa G" in his nice and juicy youtube video. (FF to :30 in... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlvYD4xfdOY). Note that also in this band is the OTHER purveyor of Tastee Notes, whom (along with the aforementioned Flavorful Bro) have made "Dubba & Trippa" household words.
For that matter... why is a DHC called a "Double C"? It is definitely NOT the C2 loved my piano pedagogy... that is much lower. The "DN's" accept that a DHC is called a "Dubba-C" merely because it is the second C above the staff NOT because it is the second C. (Well, OUR staff anyway... bass clef guys and that other weird one singers use in the middle somewhere probably have no idea how many C's higher a Dubba C is)
Consequently, the DN's logic is based on a flawed belief, isn't it?? The DHC that trumpet players know and love is actually 1864.66 Hertz, and know as a C7 (the 7th A# on the piano) (Seppa-C??? LOL!).
Colatura Sopranos think their "Double C" is the C7... a whole step higher than our favorite 1864hz DHC. They are distinctly two different pitches, all called the same thing. Who decided that a C7 (instead of a C2) is a Double C??
A=440, right?? That's an "A4" (Quad-A??)... nope.. just a plain old middle B. But only middle to us treble clef weenies. A tuba player playing 440hz is playing a high note on his horn.
The only thing that makes sense is that our LOW C is what everyone else calls a "Middle A# (233.082 hz). The note THEY call a LOW C is actually 261.626 hertz. (our low D, depending on where you put your 3rd slide!).
So if THAT is a "LOW" note then the next one has to me "MIDDLE", then the next one is "HIGH"... uh oh.. running out of adjectives.. "REALLY HIGH" & "REALLY REALLY High" never caught on, so "DUBBA" stuck.
BUT, even that logic breaks down...
What about Zach's G? His note is not the problem. The problem G's are on top of the staff and an octave higher than that. Which one is the "REAL" High G??
We all call the 2nd line in the staff the "Middle G". An octave lower than that is the "LOW G" right!? So, using the "C-Logic" above, what pitch is a "High G". Is a HIGH G an octave higher than a Middle G (like it is with C's??)??
If you ask a 7th grader to play a High G what note are you expecting to hear? What if you ask Wayne? Same question. Same trumpet. How is a guys supposed to know what note you want to hear. (Duh, we all want to hear Wayne's High G!).
So, Zach...
There is no right answer. It is a matter of perspective. It depends on your frame of reference. If you say "Triple G" we all know (even the DN's) what note you are talking about. The fact is that this note is technically 2793.83 Hertz, an F7 to the rest of the world.
Even so, I understand the confusion. I thought that the G on top of the staff was the "High G" because the one an octave lower was "Middle G". Consequently, the 4th ledger line G has to be a "Dubba G", right?? Can you have TWO high G's?? Is the one on the staff called something else??
So, I am in my mid/late 40's now. Since I do not want to sound like a high school kid I noe refer to the 4th ledger line G as a "High G", submitting the musical nomenclature that the numbering of the octaves breaks on "C".
Still, it feels wrong to refer to a 5th ledger line Bb as just a "High Bb". Then what is the one an octave lower (right below a High C) called?? If we ask some brass band weenie to play a High Bb what is he going to spit out of his Wick4? Probably not a "Dubba Bb!" (gotta have the exclamation! point)
Certainly there is some confusion and inconsistencies in note naming. Well, lets say in note NICKNAMING... they only have ONE name but many slang terms. Even worse, the same nickname MAY actually refer to TWO different pitches (High G, etc...)
So, just accept that the internet is a free country and even "Dubba-Nazi's" have a right to express their opinion... we can't expect them to keep all that internal angst all pent up... they might explode if you use an apostrophe incorrectly. |
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crzytptman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003 Posts: 10124 Location: Escondido California
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Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:12 am Post subject: |
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My experience mirrors Jeff. If you can play a G above dbl C it doesn't matter what you call it, every one will be in awe. If you can barely squeak it out, it's probably a triple G . . . _________________ Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld) |
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zackh411 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 May 2011 Posts: 1886 Location: Saint Louis MO
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Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:40 am Post subject: |
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crzytptman wrote: | My experience mirrors Jeff. If you can play a G above dbl C it doesn't matter what you call it, every one will be in awe. If you can barely squeak it out, it's probably a triple G . . . |
LOL. This is more or less my opinion, I just wanted to see what other people called things. _________________ ~Zack
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zackh411 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 May 2011 Posts: 1886 Location: Saint Louis MO
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Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:41 am Post subject: |
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tommy t. wrote: | I have argued at length, sometimes on TH, that the only logical system is one that starts with F# below the staff as "low F#," the "F#" in first space, "high F# on the top line,"etc.
It is, however, as clear to me as anything related to music can be that the guys and gals in the U.S. that make a living playing up there tend overwhelmingly to start the "double octave" at the A above the 4th ledger line.
I used to resist that as really indefensible as a matter logic and as a matter of English usage.
Now I can play that A on a regular basis and, now, I am perfectly happy with the fact that those who only claim the G can't claim "the double."
Tommy T. |
This is certainly the most logical way to do it. My thought is similar, except I like to start it at F instead of F# so the break is between letters. _________________ ~Zack
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:19 am Post subject: |
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zackh411 wrote: | tommy t. wrote: | I have argued at length, sometimes on TH, that the only logical system is one that starts with F# below the staff as "low F#," the "F#" in first space, "high F# on the top line,"etc.
It is, however, as clear to me as anything related to music can be that the guys and gals in the U.S. that make a living playing up there tend overwhelmingly to start the "double octave" at the A above the 4th ledger line.
I used to resist that as really indefensible as a matter logic and as a matter of English usage.
Now I can play that A on a regular basis and, now, I am perfectly happy with the fact that those who only claim the G can't claim "the double."
Tommy T. |
This is certainly the most logical way to do it. My thought is similar, except I like to start it at F instead of F# so the break is between letters. |
The only problem with your way Zack, is that then by your definition, the F below Low C is "Low F" and not "Pedal F". I think it's a Pedal F. So to me, the break is the F#. F# below the staff is Low F#. F# in the staff is Middle F#. F# at the top of the staff is High F#. F# above High C is Double High F#. The F Natural just below Double High F# is High F. Some may not like it, but it's the only logical method of nomenclature.
Claude used to refer to the F above High C as "Top F". If you say "Top F" most will know you're referring to the F above High C and likewise for "Top G". Maybe we could introduce the concept of "Top" notes as the notes between the "High Notes" and the Double High notes - that could open up a whole 'nother can of worms and guarantee that these topic discussions will never cease to exist!
Best wishes,
John Mohan |
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zackh411 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 May 2011 Posts: 1886 Location: Saint Louis MO
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Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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John Mohan wrote: | zackh411 wrote: | tommy t. wrote: | I have argued at length, sometimes on TH, that the only logical system is one that starts with F# below the staff as "low F#," the "F#" in first space, "high F# on the top line,"etc.
It is, however, as clear to me as anything related to music can be that the guys and gals in the U.S. that make a living playing up there tend overwhelmingly to start the "double octave" at the A above the 4th ledger line.
I used to resist that as really indefensible as a matter logic and as a matter of English usage.
Now I can play that A on a regular basis and, now, I am perfectly happy with the fact that those who only claim the G can't claim "the double."
Tommy T. |
This is certainly the most logical way to do it. My thought is similar, except I like to start it at F instead of F# so the break is between letters. |
The only problem with your way Zack, is that then by your definition, the F below Low C is "Low F" and not "Pedal F". I think it's a Pedal F. So to me, the break is the F#. F# below the staff is Low F#. F# in the staff is Middle F#. F# at the top of the staff is High F#. F# above High C is Double High F#. The F Natural just below Double High F# is High F. Some may not like it, but it's the only logical method of nomenclature.
Claude used to refer to the F above High C as "Top F". If you say "Top F" most will know you're referring to the F above High C and likewise for "Top G". Maybe we could introduce the concept of "Top" notes as the notes between the "High Notes" and the Double High notes - that could open up a whole 'nother can of worms and guarantee that these topic discussions will never cease to exist!
Best wishes,
John Mohan |
If you are playing it 123+trigger instead of lipping it, then it isn't a pedal tone. If you play it 123 and lip it, or play it just 1 and lip it, then it's pedal F. The note has a different timbre depending on how you play it. _________________ ~Zack
Lead Piece: Custom PickettBrass
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crzytptman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003 Posts: 10124 Location: Escondido California
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Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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I know customs change with the generations. Most players I run into that are from my generation call G above high C "high G".
Which G is this? I don't know - I'm in awe!
http://youtu.be/snc-X3_FdtM _________________ Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld) |
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chuck in ny Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Sep 2006 Posts: 3597 Location: New York
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Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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insofar as arturo. somewhat obscene level of virtuosity. there really are no words.
i'm working towards that high G, in the normal sense, the one above high C.
..chuck |
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Nonsense Eliminator Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Feb 2003 Posts: 5212 Location: Toronto
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Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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What I want to know is, what happens when you start bringing other keys of trumpets into the picture? If I play the B flat above the first ledger line on my C trumpet, is that now a "middle" B flat? What about third-line B on my piccolo trumpet, is that low B? What about C flat? Is high C flat the same as middle B?
If you make F# the dividing point, you will offend the Double Register Guardians and they will sniff at you, because clearly if you had a real double G you wouldn't call that pathetic high G a dubba.
If you make C the dividing point, you kind of sound like a confused lunatic, because clearly there is nothing "middle" about the B above the staff. It is hard enough dealing with fact that everybody who has ever touched a piano calls the C below the staff middle C without calling notes above a ledger line "middle."
Furthermore, none of this generally matters outside of "how big is yours" conversations, and those conversations are basically stupid. In a musical discussion, it is almost always clear from the context what you are talking about. When it's not clear from context, it seems to me that the only reasonable approach is to make reference to well-accepted or obvious benchmarks -- F at the top of the staff, G above double C, fourth Q sharp above the end of the piano, whatever.
But I really do want to know what happens to high C when I play the same note on my C trumpet... _________________ Richard Sandals
NBO |
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tommy t. Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Mar 2002 Posts: 2599 Location: Wasatch Mountains
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Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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Nonsense Eliminator wrote: | But I really do want to know what happens to high C when I play the same note on my C trumpet... |
In my case, it usually goes sharp. (Dang L.A. Benge, anyway.)
Tommy T. _________________ Actually, I hate music. I just do this for the money. |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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crzytptman wrote: | I know customs change with the generations. Most players I run into that are from my generation call G above high C "high G".
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What do these people call the G on top the staff? |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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Nonsense Eliminator wrote: | What I want to know is, what happens when you start bringing other keys of trumpets into the picture? |
Oh God! Now I'm overwhelmed. |
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Pops Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Sep 2002 Posts: 2039 Location: Dallas (Grand Prairie), Texas
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Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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College level theory, composing and arranging books as well as The Harvard Dictionary of Music, Graves, All tuners, publications like the ITG Journal... change registers at C in music notation. It is done this way for every instrument so that there is uniformity.
So all notes from High C to the b above high C are in the same octave.
Theory books don't name them low, middle high or double high pitches.
Theory and composing books label octaves based on what octave it would be for piano. C1 the lowest C on the piano up to C8 the highest.
In Europe they are taught to name notes C' C'' C''' C'''' instead of low c middle c high c and double high c. It works great and you never have to say g on top of the staff or b on top of the 1st ledger line. _________________ Clint 'Pops' McLaughlin
You can always Google me.
50 years Teaching. Teaching and writing trumpet books is ALL I do.
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Pops Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Sep 2002 Posts: 2039 Location: Dallas (Grand Prairie), Texas
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Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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John Mohan wrote: |
What do these people call the G on top the staff? |
We call it G on top of the staff. I have used that here on the TH 100 times. _________________ Clint 'Pops' McLaughlin
You can always Google me.
50 years Teaching. Teaching and writing trumpet books is ALL I do.
7,000 pages of free music. Trumpet Books, Skype Lessons: www.BbTrumpet.com |
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Pops Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Sep 2002 Posts: 2039 Location: Dallas (Grand Prairie), Texas
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Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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Nonsense Eliminator wrote: | What I want to know is, what happens when you start bringing other keys of trumpets into the picture? |
Nothing happens.
C on a C trumpet is C.
C on a Bb is still C.
C on a D trumpet is C.
The idea was that scores are in concert pitch anyway. We don't have that to worry about. but misnaming the register of a note upset voicing by jumping octaves. _________________ Clint 'Pops' McLaughlin
You can always Google me.
50 years Teaching. Teaching and writing trumpet books is ALL I do.
7,000 pages of free music. Trumpet Books, Skype Lessons: www.BbTrumpet.com |
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ewetho Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jun 2007 Posts: 1264 Location: Kankakee, IL
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Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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Pops wrote: | John Mohan wrote: |
What do these people call the G on top the staff? |
We call it G on top of the staff. I have used that here on the TH 100 times. |
Funny that is how I learned it.
Bottom F# is Lowest Note.
Low Starts at G above that.
Middle starts at G. Octave up (2nd line)
D (Db)-G (G#) are In/On Top of Staff.
G On Top of Staff - Octave up
Highs start at A (Ab)
High G. Octave up.
Highs end with G (G#)
Doubles start with A (Ab).
It ain't a double till it looks like a flute/picc part! LOL. _________________ Kanstul Chicago 1001
CG Personal
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