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laurent Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Posts: 897 Location: Barcelona (Spain)
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Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 8:00 am Post subject: |
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The OP asked the OQ (Original Question) essentially OOC (Out Of Curiosity), and is quite surprised to see the HAA (Huge Amount of Answers) he has received.
Some responses may not be PIL (Perfectly In the Line) of the OQ, but there's no criticism from the OP who believes that all of that is ATETDRIQF (At The End of The Day, Rather Interesting and Quite Fun)! _________________
Bb Trumpets: Courtois Évolution IV, Stomvi Forte,
Buescher T-120, HT3.
Mpcs: Monette B2s3, Kanstul M-B2.
Flugel: H.Bagué (Yam 631 clone in red brass).
Mpcs: Curry FL & FLD. |
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chuck in ny Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Sep 2006 Posts: 3610 Location: New York
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Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 9:06 am Post subject: |
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He told me they were huge and tiring to play for extended periods of blowing like on a 3 to 4 hour gig and that they tend to lean dark in sound. Some would like these qualities of course but how is that not also narrow in
...this information passed on by a very respected person who actually believed the content.
humility would have served better.
the main goal in the design of that horn was to make less work for the professional player (which i am not). sounding good, cool, but it was not the primary consideration. you either have a trumpet that requires less work, or one that requires more work, and it can't be both ways.
the lovely sound of a WT is intoxicating, and sound is great and all, but the adjusted blow it requires, that ease of scale and dribbling air in, is like spreading warm butter on toast. it's nicer than the sound. go figure.
back on topic. monette v. harrelson. within this narrow choice it would clearly be the harrelson. i would ask jason for whichever model is the most popular, which is usually each manufacturer's hot item, and to set it up for reasonably free blowing. if that model was not suitable for jazz playing, then change to the model that is. the spec process has to be simple.
..chuck |
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sounds7 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 Posts: 635 Location: New Orleans
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Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 9:06 am Post subject: |
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shofarguy wrote: | Sounds,
I have worked hard at participating in this thread without co-opting it for another purpose or taking it in an unintended direction. Can we keep it a "Monette vs. Harrelson" thread, please?
What I mean is that one man builds to the individual requirements of each player, while the other builds one product that is the most capable tool he can devise.
I am sure that Jason is a wonderful person, player and designer. I intend to approach him and begin a working relationship in the near future. I hope I get to become more familiar with his product line.
Sounds, do what I do. Don't take someone (anyone) else's opinion as Gospel. Play the horns with an open mind and judge for yourself before passing on "information". My experience runs 180 degrees counter to what you wrote, but I've decided not to answer your Respected Professional Player's statements any further, in deference to the OP.
Brian |
I can respect that Brian. I have no way of trying a wild thing at the moment and I wont purchase one without first trying it. The problem is in the south, I dont know of anyone who carries them or even has one to try. Maybe one day. _________________ 47 Martin Committee #3
Buescher lightweight 400 228
Buescher lightweight 400 217
Taylor/Harrelson/MAW
Warburton model 235
Stomvi Mambo #5
Conn constellation 38a cor.
Courtois 301 Orchestra C
Yamaha Custom 9830 pic
Yamaha 731 /Harrelson mod |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7016 Location: AZ
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Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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trumpetchops wrote: |
What I'm taking from what I read is that a Wild Thing will work for almost everything but if I just want it for just one thing like playing lead in a big band, there are more specialized options (other brand) that will work better? |
There is one thing the WT does not do as well as some horns. It doesn't do the laser beam thing so well. One can get pretty close by using the heaviest set of valve caps Flip sells. It WILL do a great commercial lead sound that cuts over the band without being unidirectional. All the other styles I can think of it can accomplish easily and most likely with a better sound than other trumpets.
Now, what were we saying about Monette?
Brian _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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jonbutler16 Regular Member
Joined: 18 May 2013 Posts: 43
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Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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There is a reason why so many Harrelsons end up on ebay and the TH marketplace while Monettes are usually kept by their owners. I have yet to see a pro player pull out a Harrelson on an important gig, or even a rehearsal for that matter. |
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crzytptman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003 Posts: 10124 Location: Escondido California
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Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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shofarguy wrote: | trumpetchops wrote: |
What I'm taking from what I read is that a Wild Thing will work for almost everything but if I just want it for just one thing like playing lead in a big band, there are more specialized options (other brand) that will work better? |
There is one thing the WT does not do as well as some horns. It doesn't do the laser beam thing so well. One can get pretty close by using the heaviest set of valve caps Flip sells. It WILL do a great commercial lead sound that cuts over the band without being unidirectional. All the other styles I can think of it can accomplish easily and most likely with a better sound than other trumpets.
Now, what were we saying about Monette?
Brian |
I can agree with that. I don't use the heavy caps, I like the horn resonant. Getting the right balance with the mpc has been key for me. I don't like the lazer beam sound for me. I'd rather have a fat sassy sound with sizzle. I think if you're looking for a generic sound, maybe a different horn . . . _________________ Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld) |
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Retlaw Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Nov 2006 Posts: 3263 Location: UK
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Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 12:25 am Post subject: |
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jonbutler16 wrote: | There is a reason why so many Harrelsons end up on ebay and the TH marketplace while Monettes are usually kept by their owners. I have yet to see a pro player pull out a Harrelson on an important gig, or even a rehearsal for that matter. |
It is always difficult to judge how good a trumpet is by how many sell on ebay and how many you see at a gig... Here in the UK I regularly see one Harrelson ....that is it. I have seen three Monettes.. Guy Barker, Tomasz Stanko and Wynton. I have seen no WT trumpets at a gig...in fact Arturo didn't play his when I saw him here in Europe recently. I have seen one Hub Van Laar Oiram flugel played by Paulo Fresu but I have seen quite a few Taylors and the odd Eclipse. Hardly any of these horns ever appear on Ebay in the UK.
The reality I suspect is that there is a relatively small proportion of these horns around compared to the more mainstream trumpets. I suspect that because Harrelsons are less expensive than Monettes that some people are prepared to try them and them and then move on to the next greener looking field. Monettes are expensive and after spending big bucks and a huge wait maybe people are more serious about them or they just sell privately..
The Monettes I heard where all played by great players but there was no question that there was common ground in the trumpet they used and they sounded great.
My Harrelson is a smooth cool jazz horn...in tune top to bottom and easy to play...friends have played it and found the same. They are bespoke horns made to fit you....Jason is very good at getting a match. If you want a horn that many people can play on and you plan to sell it later tell Jason....he will get it right. If you need a very personal and precise set up he can do that for you.
If you want a light weight and need to feel every vibration and bump in the road there are other options out there.
Walter _________________ "Amazing how many people listen with their eyes."
"Life is short....play nice." |
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sounds7 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 Posts: 635 Location: New Orleans
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Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 2:56 am Post subject: |
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jonbutler16 wrote: | There is a reason why so many Harrelsons end up on ebay and the TH marketplace while Monettes are usually kept by their owners. I have yet to see a pro player pull out a Harrelson on an important gig, or even a rehearsal for that matter. |
Have you actually looked at ebay lately? I have seen just as many Monette trumpets as Harrelson if not more. At present there are 5 Monettes on ebay and 3 second hand Harrelson so this point is hogwash IMO. Thompson music has 7 Monettes on consignment right now (No Harrelsons though)The Trumpetshop has 2 Monette trumpets on consignment but no Harrelsons. should I continue?
Also In my neck of the woods- New Orleans La- in the home city of Wynton, Terrance Blanchard and Irvin Mayfield there are far more Harrelson trumpets being used by the pros in performances, rehearsals and tours and TV appearances than Monette (which is practically non existent here). Jason Harrelson has penetrated this area with his trumpets. Give it time and it will eventually make its way up to you, Harrelson started his company in 2005 which was far after when Dave started in Chicago 1983 and has been at it 30 years. Just a little bit of a head start dont you think? Also Dave gives his fancy smancy gold plated trumpets to guys like Wynton so folks like you will feel that having one makes you more elite. Total nonsense! _________________ 47 Martin Committee #3
Buescher lightweight 400 228
Buescher lightweight 400 217
Taylor/Harrelson/MAW
Warburton model 235
Stomvi Mambo #5
Conn constellation 38a cor.
Courtois 301 Orchestra C
Yamaha Custom 9830 pic
Yamaha 731 /Harrelson mod
Last edited by sounds7 on Tue May 21, 2013 10:57 am; edited 2 times in total |
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laurent Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Posts: 897 Location: Barcelona (Spain)
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Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 4:20 am Post subject: |
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Retlaw wrote: | jonbutler16 wrote: | There is a reason why so many Harrelsons end up on ebay and the TH marketplace while Monettes are usually kept by their owners. I have yet to see a pro player pull out a Harrelson on an important gig, or even a rehearsal for that matter. |
It is always difficult to judge how good a trumpet is by how many sell on ebay and how many you see at a gig... Here in the UK I regularly see one Harrelson ....that is it. I have seen three Monettes.. Guy Barker, Tomasz Stanko and Wynton. I have seen no WT trumpets at a gig...in fact Arturo didn't play his when I saw him here in Europe recently. I have seen one Hub Van Laar Oiram flugel played by Paulo Fresu but I have seen quite a few Taylors and the odd Eclipse. Hardly any of these horns ever appear on Ebay in the UK.
The reality I suspect is that there is a relatively small proportion of these horns around compared to the more mainstream trumpets. |
You're probably right. I think that most pro players play "mass produced" horns, sometimes vintage models - and they have no problem to sound great!
I guess that the most expensive, sophisticated instruments are mostly bought by amateurs players who developped a passion for high end gear.
And high end instruments are, indeed, fascinating!
Retlaw wrote: |
My Harrelson is a smooth cool jazz horn...in tune top to bottom and easy to play...friends have played it and found the same. They are bespoke horns made to fit you....Jason is very good at getting a match. If you want a horn that many people can play on and you plan to sell it later tell Jason....he will get it right. If you need a very personal and precise set up he can do that for you. |
I've no idea if many people end up selling their Harrelson horn, but here on TH several Harrelson clients have expressed their deception when after several months, they finally received a horn "built to their specs" that in reality didn't suit their needs.
I've never read such a thing, I think, about Monette, Taylor, Hub Van Laar or Roy Lawler, for example. Or very few and I don't remember!
(Correct me if I'm wrong.)
Jason Harrelson is perfectly able to build very good trumpets, no doubt about that. But the "custom built" aspect isn't necessarily what he does the best.
I still own my HT3 and like to play it a little from time to time, but if one day I need some additional cash, this horn will be the first to go with no regret.
And my Courtois Évolution IV, a "mass produced" trumpet played, for example, by Sergei Nakariakov and Andrea Giuffredi (before he switched to Monette recently), would be the last... _________________
Bb Trumpets: Courtois Évolution IV, Stomvi Forte,
Buescher T-120, HT3.
Mpcs: Monette B2s3, Kanstul M-B2.
Flugel: H.Bagué (Yam 631 clone in red brass).
Mpcs: Curry FL & FLD. |
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sounds7 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 Posts: 635 Location: New Orleans
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Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 4:31 am Post subject: |
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laurent wrote: |
I've no idea if many people end up selling their Harrelson horn, but here on TH several Harrelson clients have expressed their deception when after several months, they finally received a horn "built to their specs" that in reality didn't suit their needs.
I've never read such a thing, I think, about Monette, Taylor, Hub Van Laar or Roy Lawler, for example. Or very few and I don't remember!
(Correct me if I'm wrong.)
Jason Harrelson is perfectly able to build very good trumpets, no doubt about that. But the "custom built" aspect isn't necessarily what he does the best.
I still own my HT3 and like to play it a little from time to time, but if one day I need some additional cash, this horn will be the first to go with no regret.
And my Courtois Évolution IV, a "mass produced" trumpet played, for example, by Sergei Nakariakov and Andrea Giuffredi (before he switched to Monette recently), would be the last... |
The builders you mention with exception of Taylor and Monette do not do custom horns they make hand built trumpets that they designed but the design is predetermined. For example Lawler can build you a C7 or one of his other designs but he will not put all kinds of custom built to order options on it. All true custom builders deal with the reality that not all customers will be satisfied and Harrelson is no exception however, that said, he will give you 100% of what you paid for the horn within the first year and after that is very generous trading that horn for its full original purchase price towards a different trumpet. I did just that with my Bravura after owning it for 4 years and traded for a Summit One. Dude gave me what I paid for the Bravura in credit towards the Summit. Tell me another custom builder that does that. Would Monette do that? not a chance. You might actually want to talk to Jason about your HT and let him know what it doesn't do for you and see if he could get you in a trumpet that does work for you. Just be prepared to wait if you order anything custom from him right now as he is really backed up. _________________ 47 Martin Committee #3
Buescher lightweight 400 228
Buescher lightweight 400 217
Taylor/Harrelson/MAW
Warburton model 235
Stomvi Mambo #5
Conn constellation 38a cor.
Courtois 301 Orchestra C
Yamaha Custom 9830 pic
Yamaha 731 /Harrelson mod |
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jonbutler16 Regular Member
Joined: 18 May 2013 Posts: 43
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Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 7:33 am Post subject: |
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Retlaw wrote: | jonbutler16 wrote: | There is a reason why so many Harrelsons end up on ebay and the TH marketplace while Monettes are usually kept by their owners. I have yet to see a pro player pull out a Harrelson on an important gig, or even a rehearsal for that matter. |
It is always difficult to judge how good a trumpet is by how many sell on ebay and how many you see at a gig... Here in the UK I regularly see one Harrelson ....that is it. I have seen three Monettes.. Guy Barker, Tomasz Stanko and Wynton. I have seen no WT trumpets at a gig...in fact Arturo didn't play his when I saw him here in Europe recently. I have seen one Hub Van Laar Oiram flugel played by Paulo Fresu but I have seen quite a few Taylors and the odd Eclipse. Hardly any of these horns ever appear on Ebay in the UK.
The reality I suspect is that there is a relatively small proportion of these horns around compared to the more mainstream trumpets. I suspect that because Harrelsons are less expensive than Monettes that some people are prepared to try them and them and then move on to the next greener looking field. Monettes are expensive and after spending big bucks and a huge wait maybe people are more serious about them or they just sell privately..
The Monettes I heard where all played by great players but there was no question that there was common ground in the trumpet they used and they sounded great.
My Harrelson is a smooth cool jazz horn...in tune top to bottom and easy to play...friends have played it and found the same. They are bespoke horns made to fit you....Jason is very good at getting a match. If you want a horn that many people can play on and you plan to sell it later tell Jason....he will get it right. If you need a very personal and precise set up he can do that for you.
If you want a light weight and need to feel every vibration and bump in the road there are other options out there.
Walter |
Many players dump them within a year or two.
Current examples:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Harrelson-trumpet-Brushed-Satin-Bravura-2010-/251276374260
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Harrelson-Bravura-Trumpet-NO-RESERVE-/181144385280 |
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Xenoman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Nov 2001 Posts: 1209
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Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 10:21 am Post subject: |
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Not sure if it has been mentioned in this thread but Jeremy Pelt plays a beautiful custom Summit and he sounds fantastic on it.
Check out his recording Water & Earth. Whether you like the horn or not there is some great music to be heard there. _________________ Eric M. Brewington
http://www.jazzbrew.com |
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sounds7 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 Posts: 635 Location: New Orleans
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laurent Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Posts: 897 Location: Barcelona (Spain)
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Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 11:42 am Post subject: |
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The case of Monette is probably very special: due to the huge price of these trumpets, I guess that the Monette owners who are running out of cash tend to sell their so expensive horn first, in order to get quickly a significant amount of money. Even if they love the trumpet...
Well it's what I guess, I don't own a Monette and very likely will never do!
They look and sound beautifully, but are way too expensive in my opinion. _________________
Bb Trumpets: Courtois Évolution IV, Stomvi Forte,
Buescher T-120, HT3.
Mpcs: Monette B2s3, Kanstul M-B2.
Flugel: H.Bagué (Yam 631 clone in red brass).
Mpcs: Curry FL & FLD. |
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david mickley Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 May 2009 Posts: 712 Location: Indianapolis, In.
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Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think you can determine if a trumpet is good or not by the amount of a certain horn is for sale on ebay. we trumpet players are a fickle bunch and I know that I have owned the "last" horn or mouth piece that I'll ever need quite a few times. Jason, Dave, Roy and others are very good at their craft so we should not dump on them unless you can build a better horn. maybe we can tell how they play, their plusses and minuses rather than just saying how bad a horn is, especially if you haven't played the horn you are putting down. _________________ Chicago Benge 33XX
Burbank Benge 5X 59XX
Yamaha Flugel 231
assorted other horns |
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dr_trumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Nov 2001 Posts: 2537 Location: Cope, IN
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Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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And one cannot ignore the current trend for instruments to go lighter than in the past 20 years or so. Picking up a Schilke, then picking up a Monette 993, the difference in weight is tremendous. The current fad/tactic is to work with internals, and reduce the weight. You see a lot of horns on eBay, but several of them are from the same seller. You see several at Thompson, but Mike often sells used Monettes for guys with new ones who need to liquidate their investment in older equipment to afford the new. I own three instruments from Monette, and would not buy another without a plan for liquidating my current Monettes. If the new horn isn't good enough to beat out the old horn, the new horn goes back. I do not know what the typical production run for Harrelson or Taylor is, but imagine them to be significantly smaller than the number run at Monette simply because of the size of the shop. Monette has a good sized staff running the operation, making horns, mouthpieces, and fabricating other outsourced items like cases and custom decorative cuts and inlays. That last I heard, Harrelson's shop was maybe 4-5 folks, and Taylor shop was less than that. I could be all wrong with Harrelson and Taylor, because I am not in touch with them like I am Monette.
That does not change their value, in my opinion, but does perhaps account for creation time, and for the lack of used instruments on the market. _________________ Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music |
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sounds7 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 Posts: 635 Location: New Orleans
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Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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dr_trumpet wrote: | And one cannot ignore the current trend for instruments to go lighter than in the past 20 years or so. Picking up a Schilke, then picking up a Monette 993, the difference in weight is tremendous. The current fad/tactic is to work with internals, and reduce the weight. You see a lot of horns on eBay, but several of them are from the same seller. You see several at Thompson, but Mike often sells used Monettes for guys with new ones who need to liquidate their investment in older equipment to afford the new. I own three instruments from Monette, and would not buy another without a plan for liquidating my current Monettes. If the new horn isn't good enough to beat out the old horn, the new horn goes back. I do not know what the typical production run for Harrelson or Taylor is, but imagine them to be significantly smaller than the number run at Monette simply because of the size of the shop. Monette has a good sized staff running the operation, making horns, mouthpieces, and fabricating other outsourced items like cases and custom decorative cuts and inlays. That last I heard, Harrelson's shop was maybe 4-5 folks, and Taylor shop was less than that. I could be all wrong with Harrelson and Taylor, because I am not in touch with them like I am Monette.
That does not change their value, in my opinion, but does perhaps account for creation time, and for the lack of used instruments on the market. |
This is precisely why I traded my Harrelson Bravura in on a lighter model- Summit One. The summit One is 48 ounces or 3 Lbs.which is the average weight of most trumpets. http://whyharrelson.weebly.com/summit-one.html
A Bach Strad weighs around 3.5 Lbs. There are even lighter models on the horizon for Harrelson that do not compromise efficiency and will still use SWE technology. I will not let the cat out of the bag totally but lets just say there are some very strong metals out there that are lighter than brass that can be used for bracing purposes.
As for the shop staff, Jason Harrelson is it as far as who actually works on the trumpet. He doesn't have assistants doing building for him although he does employ his sister for web design and customer support. The set back to this is the amount of time you will wait especially for custom work or special limited edition trumpets. _________________ 47 Martin Committee #3
Buescher lightweight 400 228
Buescher lightweight 400 217
Taylor/Harrelson/MAW
Warburton model 235
Stomvi Mambo #5
Conn constellation 38a cor.
Courtois 301 Orchestra C
Yamaha Custom 9830 pic
Yamaha 731 /Harrelson mod |
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chuck in ny Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Sep 2006 Posts: 3610 Location: New York
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Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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weight has crept back into the discussion and it's not some small point.
retlaw has a harrelson that he is satisfied with, plays well, sounds fine. the trumpet that he picks up is the schilke b6. now walter hasn't specifically commented or anything, but it could be a case of simply doing what is easiest.
the advice for pistols is to not get a full frame and nicely front weighted piece for concealed carry. many get them, and after a number of days, it stays home. they tell you to get something mid weight and reasonably compact, and that, you can live with and not feel it all the time. people are very simple creatures in our habits. we arrange to do what is easiest.
..chuck |
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jonbutler16 Regular Member
Joined: 18 May 2013 Posts: 43
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Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 11:08 am Post subject: |
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david mickley wrote: | I don't think you can determine if a trumpet is good or not by the amount of a certain horn is for sale on ebay. ... |
To some extent, you can, and you can glean further knowledge of the inadequacy and problematic concepts of their design when you see that the resale value is less than 50% within a year or two. Monettes and Taylors don't take a dump in value like that, because they value functionality and sound quality over stylish aesthetic presentation. |
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Wondra Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Mar 2007 Posts: 539
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Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 11:11 am Post subject: |
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Looks like the troll popped back - I'll let the mods know - it will be gone soon... _________________ Dave Wondra
Don't make me get the flying monkeys... |
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