Benge trumpets

[da_roadrunner]

What is the main difference between a Benge 3X a Benge 5X?

[DavesTrumpet]

The bell is the only difference, the leadpipe and everything else is the same. It's described as having a "slighty darker sound than the 3X."

Dave M

[Benge Loyalist]

The bell on a Benge model 5 is much smaller at the flair than the bell of a model 3. Although the 5 bell is the same size as a 3 where it joins the 1st valve, the flair starts farther out on a 5 bell and doesn't flair out as much. It is called a 'tighter' bell.

The model 5 shares the same lead pipe as the model 3. They both have the same 'blow', i.e., resistance characteristics.

My 5 is brighter than most trumpets, especially when I use a shallow cup. With the shallow, pea-shooter mouthpiece, it is a dream to play as a lead horn. When changing to a deeper cup (about the size of a Bach 5 or 7 C), the horn darks down and fits nicely in my quintet and for solo work.

It has been a very long time since having last compared the various Benges to one another. I'd like the chance to do it again.
_________________
Benge Loyalist aka UsedBits
Benge Bb 5x ml #8162 Burbank 1969 gold
Benge C 2c+ mlp #7481 Burbank 1968 silver
Benge D/Eb ml #6579 Burbank 1965 raw brass
Benge Flugel 5 ml #17708 Los Angeles silver
Stomvi piccolo, m1
Boston 3 star NE Plus Ultra (1912)

[da_roadrunner]

what about the bore sizes??? and what would be a good serial number to get?

[Benge Loyalist]

The bore sizes of the Benge are as follows:
M - 0.458 (not certain on this, could be 0.456)
ML - 0.460
MLP - 0.464
L - 0.468

Model 2x came standard as 'M'.
Models 3x, 4x, and 5x came standard as ML or MLP
Model 6x came standard as L

All of the above could be custom ordered, so a model 2 could be made with a ML valve cluster, or a model 3 could be ordered with a M cluster, etc. As an example, I have a Burbank Benge 'C' trumpet Model 2 MLP. Yet, the catalog describes the Model 2 with ML and Model 3 with MLP. However, I wanted the sound of the 2 bell with the decreased resistance of the MLP valve cluster (bore).

After Benge moved from Burbank to Los Angeles, Zig Kanstul realized that the custom horns made for Claude Gordon had some special characteristics. First, the workers were buffing the daylights out of the bell to make it thinner. Secondly, he realized that they had inadvertantly used a MLP valve cluster with an L bell.

Kanstul started making the bells with thinner metal, thus saving the labor overhead of buffing and enjoying a more consistant bell to boot. Then he started making a Claude Gordon model (the "CG") with the MLP cluster and L bell. Thus began the so-called "step-bore" trumpet design.

Something I don't know about Benges and would like to learn: there isn't much discussion about leadpipe variences. Was there really one and only one leadpipe for all these models?

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About serial numbers - here are some general 'rules'.

10,000 and up: is considered an inferior product. While it is true that some exceptional horns come from this era, they are far and few in between. I don't know how to rate the "CG" model as they are from the so-called 'inferior' era and because I've never played one. I hear they're great players.

8700 - 10000: The first of the 'true' Los Angeles line

8300 - 8700: Assembled in Los Angeles but made with Burbank parts

above 8000: Zig Kanstul joins Benge. I don't know when he left. Could have come as early as the 7800 mark.

5500 - 8000: Don Benge (Eldon's son) runs the shop

below 5500: Made by Eldon Benge (he died in about 1960) I'm not certain of the exact serial number, but 5500 is close. Others will likely know. (help!)

525 - around 3000: the famous Chicago Benges!

I do not know at what point Benge moved from Chicago to Burbank. It was in 1952. But I do know that the first Benge was serial number 525 and made in the middle to late 30s.

The most rare of the Benges are those between 8300 and 8700 with "Burbank, CA" (and no street address) stamped on the bell. These are the ones assembled in LA with Burbank parts. Most of these horns had "Los Angeles, CA" stamped on the bell.

The most desired are the Chicago horns. Most are Bb, but there are a few C and even fewer D/Eb models.

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Playing characteristics of the above 'era's.

I can testify only to my own horns.

None of my Benges were made by Eldon. My Bb was made by Kanstul. The C and D/Eb were made when Don Benge ran the shop.

My Bb and D/Eb are equally good players. The Bb was recently described as "the best Benge I've ever played" by Dave Rosen, a locally respected player in Little Rock, Arkansas.

Only my 'C' trumpet suffers with the flat 5th partial (4th line D and 4th space E). I"m told that this characteristic is found in all of the Benge 'era's.

A small improvement was made to the 5th partial flatness by having the valves alligned using different valve felts. Dave Rosen discovered that the 2nd valve was sitting slightly low when in the open position.

I recently discovered that one particular mouthpiece makes the C play almost perfectly in tune. It happens to sit in the mouthpiece receiver slightly more deeply than the rest, causing it to have a slightly smaller gap.

Believe it or not, but the horn is flat (on the 5th partial) with my other mouthpieces, and almost perfectly in tune (on the 5th partial) with the 'special' mouthpiece. It is a stock Stomvi 7C.

I can vary the sound (bright to dark) through changing cups on my Giardinelli screw rim (made in the 70s by Emil Provinger). I use a 7CW rim with 1 (deep), 3C, and 5 (shallow) cups. I don't know the specs of the backbores.

I hope this answers your questions.


_________________
Benge Loyalist (aka UsedBits) owns the following instruments:
Benge Bb, 5x, ml, #8162 (Burbank 1969), gold plated
Benge C, 2x+, mlp, #7481 (Burbank 1968), silver plated
Benge D/Eb, ml, #6579 (Burbank 1965), raw brass
Stomvi piccolo, m1

[ This Message was edited by: Benge Loyalist on 2003-11-18 19:47 ]

[DavesTrumpet]

The M bore Benge is .453"

The 1X, 2X, 2X+, 3X, 3X+, 5X, and 6X models all use the same leadpipe.

The 4X and CG each have their own, unique pipe.

Interesting comments about the 5X being bright. Benge's own literature states:

5X (ML) .460". Large, brilliant and well-centered tone. Has a slightly darker sound than the 3X. Freest blowing ML bore trumpet.

I find it difficult at times to relate to sounds as either "Dark" or "Bright". Lots of times the sound is too complex to give it such a singular, blanket statement. Take Timofei Dokshizer, for example (a Benge 3X+/MLP player): he can sound both dark and bright at the same time! Dark with brilliance. Bright with depth.

Dave M

[ This Message was edited by: DavesTrumpet on 2003-11-18 22:20 ]

[ This Message was edited by: DavesTrumpet on 2003-11-18 22:22 ]

[plankowner110]

Don't forget the Benge 7X (.470 bore) which was in the product line in the early 80s.

I bought a nice used Chicago Benge in 1973 for $200 after my Connstellation had been stolen. I only played it a short time and re-sold it to a high school student for $200. I was not a Benge fan at the time and had no idea Chicago Benges would ever be so desirable. I don't remember the model number, only that it was in lacquer and was stamped Chicago, Ill on the bell. I bet that horn is still sitting in that kid's closet!
_________________
C. G. Conn 60B Super Connstellation
Getzen 800S Eterna cornet
Bach 5C (Jens Lindemann is right)
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26763

[PJB]

Threads regarding Benge trumpets always interest me since I've been playing my 3X for the past 29 years. Based upon my experience, I take a slight exception to Benge Loyalist's rules of thumb re: serial numbers above 10,000. It has been my understanding that the LA horns produced after King bought Benge are still considered to be good horns. I know my horn, a 1974 3X (serial number 12250), has always been a pleasure to play. However, to be fair, I've never played a Chicago, Burbank, or pre-King Benge. I'd love to--just never had the opportunity.

Like many Benge fans, I think what UMI did to the name of Benge was regretful. I'm glad to see Kanstul maintaining a bit of the old Benge lore with their Chicago line.
_________________
Pete Blaise

1974 Benge 3X Bb
1950 Olds Super
2002 Yamaha Xeno 8445GS C
2004 Kanstul ZKF 1525 Flugel

[da_roadrunner]

thanx for answering the questions i asked and some that i didn't even know i had.
Here are some more i have:
What is the issue with tuning on benges?
Are there any horror stories about benges?
What would be a good price for a benge?
Besides ebay, where would be a good place to find one?
(since i'm from north dakota there's not really any place close so i'll need to mail order to try)

[ This Message was edited by: da_roadrunner on 2003-11-19 10:12 ]

[Benge Loyalist]

Interesting comments - I welcome any and all corrections and criticisms.

The Benge 7x is not considered a true Benge - it was a King 'innovation', but I don't know if Kanstul or Dudda had anything to do with it. If either (or both) were still with King, I could see a strong case for considering it to be a true Benge. The "Loyalist" in me, however, holds that Eldon didn't create the model, therefore it isn't a Benge. (I feel the same way about the Benge pocket trumpet and flugelhorn because they were not Eldon innovations. However, they're Zig Kanstul creations, which muddies the water considerably.)

The same is true for UMI - they are not considered true Benge, especially the Lenora and 'B' models. UMI has desecrated the Benge name such that is is now simply a marketing 'brand'.

My remarks about the quality of horns numbered 10,000 and upmay be overly harsh. This is an arbetrary line, more or less, because the quality of Benge was PERCEIVED to decline after the King takeover.

Many players also complained about the pre-King Los Angeles horns. In fact, the Benge factory was shocked that players complained about the LA horns numbered 8300 to 8700 - these were made with Burbank parts and only assembled in LA.

It could all be a matter of perception and have nothing to do with fact. But it *is* the way it is. As I said before, there are some great instruments in this era.

Thanks about the leadpipe information!

As for my 5x's brightness, I attribute it entirely to my shallow mouthpiece. When playing with the Giardinelli 3c cup, it has a beautiful, sonorous, full-bodied sound.



_________________
Benge Loyalist (aka UsedBits) owns the following instruments:
Benge Bb, 5x, ml, #8162 (Burbank 1969), gold plated
Benge C, 2x+, mlp, #7481 (Burbank 1968), silver plated
Benge D/Eb, ml, #6579 (Burbank 1965), raw brass
Stomvi piccolo, m1

[ This Message was edited by: Benge Loyalist on 2003-11-19 11:52 ]

[DavesTrumpet]

I always forget about the 7X. I guess it was an answer to the CG Model after Gordon went over to Selmer, but I don't know if it uses a nickel-silver leadpipe or brass.

A couple of my friends play a 7X. It's a BIG horn to fill.

Last time I saw Stan Mark, we was playing a 7X.

I've got a UMI 3X that plays nicely, really, except that the mpc gap was set so far back that horn played terribly flat.

Recently tried one of the Kanstul Chicago MLP horns. Wow, what a great horn. I'd really like to buy one of those!

Dave M

[DavesTrumpet]

[BADBOY-DON]

One of the biggest mistakes in my life was when I traded off my old Benge 3X for a lackluster #37ML Bach from hell, simply because our Portland director of the symphony demanded that the section use one brand of horn.

[Tim80]

What do ya'll think of the treatment given this very late model LA Benge?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2574290421&category=16214#ebayphotohosting
_________________
All murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.
Voltaire

[camelbrass]

Hi,

Rich Ita/Andersen Plating is a great combination but it seems to be a little over the top for a very late (41,XXX) LA Benge. The money probably would have been better spent on a Burbank or early LA model..probably a better chance of being able to get a premium on it to help offset the cost of the recon.

Speaking of gold plated Benges though, has anyone seen the Chicago #681 on E-Bay. Do you reckon the golds original or a re-plate??

Regards

Trevor

[Tim80]

I saw Benge #681. The listing was closed early. I bet someone made the seller an offer they couldn't refuse. I reasoned to myself that it was a replate. That is my rationalization anyway. Sour grapes. Not me. As for the late LA Benge the listing doesn't say when the mods were done.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2574045158&category=16214
_________________
Tim
Plant City, Florida


[ This Message was edited by: Tim80 on 2003-11-20 09:40 ]