allergic reaction to silver

saponi100 · Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:25 pm Post subject: allergic reaction to silver

Hello everyone
i know this has been discussed in the past but i really would like to know if i am experiencing any reaction to silver.I have played for a long time and never experienced this feeling on my lips.I just purchased a Curry 7 BC from milano music and i have had it for a week and the past 4 days wheni am practicing it burns alot about 45 MINUTES INTO PRACTICING and espeacially afterwards for about 20 minutes and then it goes away.I have other mouthpieces that are silver and i have one gold and one delrin from Dr Dave.Does any one ever experience this and if so what do you think it is.I lnow you guys are not doctors i just find it strange after all this time i get reaction like this.Thanks for any help or comments.You have been helpful in the past!.Also i checked my lips and it didnt seem to get real red after practicing and i have most of the irritation on the top lip. MY lips are strange it has some size to the top lip but thin on the bottom lip..Thanks again!
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etc-etc · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6187

It is likely a reaction to an impurity in silver, such as nickel. Try a different maker.Gold plating might help unless it is too thin allowing nickel to migrate through it.

VetPsychWars · Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:41 pm Post subject:

Rather than "impurity", it's a "brightener". Many silver platers add certain chemicals to make the silver plate whiter and brighter.

Gold is probably a good choice. You might consider sending your mouthpiece to Charlie Melk as he uses a variety of platers and can possibly address your problems.

Tom
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1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
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saponi100 · Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:21 pm Post subject:

So you think it could be all makers of siver mputhpieces or just this brand.Thanks for the response.
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Austin Custom Brass Doubler Large bore Cornet
Eastman VTR10S Trumpet
John Packer C Trumpet
Lotus 2L
Wick 3 Cornet

etc-etc · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6187

As the products of other makers do not cause you trouble, continue with these.

VetPsychWars · Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:49 pm Post subject:

mattdalton · Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:09 pm Post subject:

I'd be careful making any conclusions too quickly that it is related to the silver plating of one brand (Curry) of mouthpiece.

Allergic reactions can seemingly come on suddenly, be it foods, mouthpieces, or whatever. It is known that Wynton Marsalis started having issues with gold mouthpieces after playing them for many years, and had to switch to silver plated. And Trent Austin wrote here on TH in years past about silver allergies coming on fairly rapidly for him, so you might check some of his posts or send him a PM.

I'd clean your mouthpieces well, get other irritants out of you diet and environment, take a day or two off, then start again and see what happens. And of course, consult a medical doctor if this continues.

Luckily, if you have developed a silver allergy, there are solutions. Mark Curry can make you a lexan rim, there are Delrin options like your mouthpiece from Dr. Dave's, and even newer acrylic tops from ACB. But I hope it doesn't come to that, and you get over this soon. Best of luck to you!
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Matt Dalton

royjohn · Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:26 pm Post subject:

I would be really careful about drawing conclusions about one maker's mouthpieces. I suppose it is possible that there is some contaminant in the silver plate on Currys, but I don't think it's very likely. Currys are pretty popular and I don't know of anyone else reporting this problem. I also cannot find any reference to the current use of nickel as a brightener in silver plating. Frankly I think anyone using nickel in a current silver bath would have to be very short sighted, as nickel is prohibited in jewelry in Europe, while it is still allowed here in the US. A silver plate is pretty much a 0.999 pure silver coating, too.

It really isn't fair to Mark to be spreading gossip about his mouthpieces with no particular justification.

If I were the OP, I'd call or write Mark and talk with him about the plating setup he's using. There are only a few commercial formulations for this, so I doubt that what Mark is using is that different from what everyone else is using.
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royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .

etc-etc · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6187

Roy,

Whenever a change is accompanied by a detrimental effect, one needs to isolate the reason for the detrimental effect to occur. The simplest is to reverse the change and see whether the detrimental effect is reversed. In a simple linear, or quasilinear system the reversal of change would lead to a complete or almost complete reversal of the detrimental effects. In nonlinear systems, reversal of change is not guaranteed to reverse the effects.

If the OP feels mouthpieces used until now did not cause any problems, I would suggest return to status quo and see if the detrimental effect vanishes. Unfortunately, in case of allergy which is a highly nonlinear and self-accelerating effect, reversal may not bring relief.

There is no way of telling whether it was the change of the mouthpiece that brought on the detrimental effects, either.

royjohn · Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:42 pm Post subject:

etc.-etc.,

Whew! For a minute there I felt like I was back in graduate school and it wasn't a pleasant sensation. I got a little quasi-nauseous and thought it was due to nickel contaminating my keyboard. I don't know exactly what you're driving at. If it's that there are many possible causes for something like this and confounding variables, I agree.

Yes, a return to prior conditions might produce a good result, but wouldn't prove anything. My main concern was starting a rumor that Curry mouthpieces produce allergies when this is unlikely. It isn't fair to Mark.

From what I've been able to discover, silver allergies are VERY rare. Yes it is more likely to have an allergy to nickel and nickel contaminating the silver. How this would happen with silver plating, I don't know. I'm not completely sure, but I think the half cell reaction for silver occurs at a lower voltage than the one for nickel. So you wouldn't get much nickel plating out from a silver plating solution while there was silver available. It stands to reason that one or the other is going to plate at a particular voltage and one wouldn't formulate a silver bath which would plate nickel, right?

About one in nine people is sensitive to nickel, so I find it quite unlikely that Mark's mouthpieces would be contaminated with nickel and no one else report it. There are literally thousands of Currys out there and that would mean hundreds of people having allergic reactions. And if Mark were unwittingly using a solution with nickel contamination, wouldn't other makers also be using it? So there would be an epidemic (means 10%, right?) of these allergies, but I don't see anyone reporting that, do you?

Yes, the OP can go back to what he was doing and hope that works. But that shouldn't mean we all start talking about Curry's mouthpieces being contaminated. "Negative placebo effect?"
_________________
royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .

Louise Finch · Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 1:10 am Post subject: Re: allergic reaction to silver

saponi100 · Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:46 am Post subject:

Thanks alot for the responses but by no means i am saying anything negative about curry mouthpieces. This is the second one i owned and didnt have a problem with it.It was a 1.5DE.I love my mouthpiece i just got and really like everything about it.I just never experienced such feeling while practicing and was concerned in general about silver plating not Marks Mouthpieces!Thanks for the post Lou and to answer your question i was playing the Wick4 and i do have the extreme mouthpiece in Gold that dosent get much pay time along with a Gold Hammond. I also have a Marcinkewitzc in Gold i found to be to Big. I do Like the B3c all delrin from Dr Dave. I was just hoping i didnt have to stay away from Silver.
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Austin Custom Brass Doubler Large bore Cornet
Eastman VTR10S Trumpet
John Packer C Trumpet
Lotus 2L
Wick 3 Cornet

Louise Finch · Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:45 am Post subject:

Hi saponi100

You are very welcome. I'm very sorry that I can't be more helpful. I would suggest contacting Mark Curry, and asking him whether he has any idea why this is happening.

Take Care

Lou
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Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
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Kanstul F Besson C
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Capt.Kirk · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Feb 2009 Posts: 5792

You can develop an allergy to anything at any point in your life. I never had allergies to anything other then dust until about 10 years ago. Now I am allergic to medications I took as a child just fine and to a lot of other things including foods I grew up eating.

The thing is that any silver would cause the reaction so if any other brand of silver MP does not cause it then it is not the silver.

You can tape a piece of silver jewelry to your skin and find out in a hurry if it is silver.

I am not allergic to gold for instance but my body chemistry will eat gold in a hurry. My platinum wedding band does not have the usual gold lining on the inside of the band because I even eat 24K gold in a hurry. Silver and lacquer seem to hold up just fine to my chemistry though.

In year gone buy nickle, iridium and other shiny metals have been used by some OEM. More people have issues with nickle though then with silver so silver is usually fairly safe.
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Capt.Kirk · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Feb 2009 Posts: 5792

I should add that not all platters are useing 100% silver. Some add in other elements as "brightners" and I know that the color changes over time and you also do not get as much blackening from sulfur with time when they do this. I do not know much about these brighteners though so I could not say if you might be allergic to these????
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trumpaholic · Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 1:31 pm Post subject:

IF you want to put it all behind you, get a stainless steel mouthpiece from Giddings & Webster!
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etc-etc · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6187

Roy,

I was driving at where you suspected: too many confounding variables. To what extent nickel and silver electrodeposition occurs would depend on the electroplating conditions (what were the concentrations of reagents and what excess potential was applied while plating).

One more possibility: has the mouthpiece been sterilized with Sterisol? If yes, it is a good idea to wash the mouthpiece with water - Sterisol is not good for your lips.

saponi100 · Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:41 pm Post subject:

Thanks for all of the responses.It is very helpful.I practiced today on my gold piece from exstreme and i had no problem with my lips.It sidnt burn or feel sore after practice.I will keep trying and testing it because i really do love the Curry 7 BC.Once again i really like to post here because where i live there is not that many places to get answers on trumpet things.
_________________
Austin Custom Brass Doubler Large bore Cornet
Eastman VTR10S Trumpet
John Packer C Trumpet
Lotus 2L
Wick 3 Cornet

trpt2 · Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:16 pm Post subject: allergy

For what it's worth,
a few years ago, I developed an allergy to nickel.
I did find that going to a gold plated mp helped a lot.
I have heard that different manufacturers use various concentrations of nickel in their silver plating. Also heard that Curry uses about a 15% nickel content, which is high.
(I do not know that this is "fact", just what I've heard). Hopefully Mark will chime in on this, as I'd certainly like to know for sure myself.
IF he does use a higher nickel content, that could indeed be a problem for you.

Bob

1400MZA · Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 1:31 am Post subject:

I've a friend that is allergical to Silver [theorically] and to nickel.
He played a Bach mouthpiece with a methacrylate rim and he have no problems any more.

One day he tryed a mp from JK and he don't have any reaction from the silver from JK.
He tryed another time standard mp from another brands and had allergical reactions.
Then tryed another time the JK and no reaction.
Why? I really don't know.

I post this because it worked for him. I hope it worked for you.