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erick Regular Member
Joined: 09 Oct 2013 Posts: 36 Location: Haines City, FL
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Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:37 pm Post subject: Upper register and large mouthpieces |
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So I've been practicing the higher register on my standard mouthpiece which is a 16C4-GP. It's a pretty deep bowl, kind of like a 1 and a half cup in Bach terms. So what if I were to use a 3C or a smaller cup? Would I be able to play higher notes? Would this mean that I would have tuning issues? _________________ Erick Sanchez
Yamaha Xeno YTR8335RGS
“Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence.”
-Vince Lombardi
Last edited by erick on Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9389 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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A more shallow cup will usually make playing higher less tiring, but won't necessarily add much to your range. Shallow cups also tend to play a bit sharper, but that varies with the player and the horn. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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jiarby Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2011 Posts: 1188
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Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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You can run a marathon in your black wing tips too.... But why would you? Are those Nikes "cheater shoes"? |
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shakuhachi Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2012 Posts: 195
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Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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with a smaller (narrower) diameter one can easier go into the upper register with more endurance too - full stop! (that is why a trombone mpc has a larger id to sound deep!)
With a shallower mouthpiece one will get a sharper sound - full stop! ( I know a lot will insist that shallower will go high alone)
Some get high register with wider id but shallower cup - I can say nothing about that!
My experience are the first two statements.
Other experiences are possible of course - but I think not representative - exeptions to the rule are accepted!
Mouthpiece design has a lot of complicated parameters regarding comfort - but I insist on this simple statements regarding range.
To get all wishes together - sound, attack, flexibility, range - this is another story..
Of course you can get more lip intrusion using deeper cups that will narrow the vibration area too - but that does not mean automatically you get more lip tissue into vibration. It only means to get more tissue in bader blood circulation - here comes cup design into play ( v-cup or normal). I will leave it now to your own conclusions and experiences.. |
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zackh411 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 May 2011 Posts: 1886 Location: Saint Louis MO
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Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: Upper register and large mouthpieces |
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erick wrote: | So I've been practicing the higher register on my standard mouthpiece which is a 16C4-GP. It's a pretty deep bowl, kind of like a 1 and a half cup in Bach terms. So what if I were to use a 3C or a smaller cup? Would I be able to play higher notes? Would this mean that I would have tuning issues? |
No, you probably wouldn't be able to play much higher, if any at all. Your tuning probably won't change much between those 2 mouthpieces.
Dale Proctor wrote: | A more shallow cup will usually make playing higher less tiring, but won't necessarily add much to your range. Shallow cups also tend to play a bit sharper, but that varies with the player and the horn. |
This is correct.
jiarby wrote: | You can run a marathon in your black wing tips too.... But why would you? Are those Nikes "cheater shoes"? |
And this is also correct. _________________ ~Zack
Lead Piece: Custom PickettBrass
Jazz Piece: Custom Curry TC
Legit Piece: Yamaha Shew Jazz (18 Drill) |
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Yogadidit Regular Member
Joined: 27 Feb 2009 Posts: 91 Location: Charlotte, NC
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Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with Dale. A smaller cup will make it easier, but for me it sacrifices the tone quality of the high notes. I stick with a middle of the road size mouthpiece that works for me throughout the range. Everyone is different, so a little experimentation is necessary. Don't go to the extremes. _________________ Yamaha 8310Z
Schilke B4L, B6L, B7L
Bach Artisan
MV Bach 239C/Bb
Yamaha 6330II Cornet
Getzen 895 Eterna Flugel
Dillon Piccolo |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2599
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Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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It's a long held misconception that reducing the diameter of the cup automatically results in higher range. We each have an optimal cup diameter that matches our physiology and embouchure and allows us to maximize our range. Deviating from that optimal diameter reduces our ability to maximize our range.
Changing to a shallower mouthpiece can make it a little easier to produce your existing range but should not be considered a way to increase your range to any significant degree.
You increase your range by developing the technique consistent with increasing range, developing the physical ability to employ that technique and employing that technique through a mouthpiece that is optimal for your physiology and embouchure.
Unless you're playing on a mouthpiece that's clearly wrong for you or on a trumpet that has mechanical issues that compromise the ability to play in the upper register just changing equipment won't do much for you in terms of increasing your range. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8348 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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Dale Proctor wrote: | A more shallow cup will usually make playing higher less tiring, but won't necessarily add much to your range. Shallow cups also tend to play a bit sharper, but that varies with the player and the horn. |
Yup. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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wiemelen Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Aug 2007 Posts: 455 Location: Belgium
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Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:39 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | A more shallow cup will usually make playing higher less tiring, but won't necessarily add much to your range. Shallow cups also tend to play a bit sharper, but that varies with the player and the horn. |
I tested this after buying my GR 67 CTZ.
This is a mouthpiece with a bigger diameter, shallower cup and pretty big bore.
It has a nice full sound, but plays a lot easier in the upper register.
When I play the CTZ, my sound is a bit sharper then on my regular GR 66.9L.
However a friend of mine who played my horn using my 66.9L and his Bach 1.25C stil sounds much sharper then I do using the CTZ.
So I have no issues using my CTZ (as a cheater mouthpiece like some tend to call it) when it's called for. _________________ Trumpet : Yamaha YTR-9335CHS + Yamaha YTR-6335H
Trumpet mouthpieces : Lotus 2L (main) + Lotus 2L2
Flugelhorn : Kanstul 1525 with Curry 1,5FL
Cornet : Conn 80a (1919) with Curry 1,5 BBC + Curry 1,5 VC + GR L66,9 #6 |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9389 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:18 am Post subject: |
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BTW, by "sharper", I mean high on the pitch, not a brighter or cutting tone. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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GizB Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Jan 2005 Posts: 202
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Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:30 am Post subject: Re: Upper register and large mouthpieces |
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erick wrote: | So I've been practicing the higher register on my standard mouthpiece which is a 16C4-GP. It's a pretty deep bowl, kind of like a 1 and a half cup in Bach terms. So what if I were to use a 3C or a smaller cup? Would I be able to play higher notes? Would this mean that I would have tuning issues? |
There's nothing I do on my Laskey 60S (Bach 5-ish) that I can't do on my Laskey 80C (Bach ~1.25), BUT - I can do it easier and longer, and the sound is more appropriate for my funk gig.
I have to pull out a bit more with the 60S, but I don't have a problem playing in tune.
Love them Laskeys!
Giz |
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DaveH Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2001 Posts: 3861
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Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:47 am Post subject: |
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The size, depth, and shape of a mouthpiece cup affects tone more than anything else. It may also have some affect on articulation and endurance. Playable and reliable range will most likely remain pretty much unaffected by a shallower mouthpiece.
If a player can play a certain range, it may be easier and take less effort to produce that same range on a shallower cup.
However, some players may tell you that they can produce a certain range better on a larger cup than a smaller cup - depends on the player. |
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gigolaw Veteran Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2007 Posts: 200 Location: Puerto Rico
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Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 8:02 am Post subject: |
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I can play the same high notes, with more or less effort, no matter which rim or cup I use. I even have the same range, with less focus, on my flugelhorn. Is a matter of how much do you have to work. But even the most perfect mouthpiece/trumpet combination will not increase your range automatically; in any case they will provide the necessary means for your daily routines to pay off.
A smaller rim will provide more support to the embouchure, so you can expect more endurance and a more comfortable setting for the upper register. With the proper cup and back bore, you might even get that plus a better sound. Believe me, I have seen a few real cases like those in the past few weeks. _________________ Schilke S42 with Reeves PVA
Schilke Flugelhorn
Calet Soloist C Trpt.
Curry 5DE trumpet mouthpiece
Giardinelli 7FL Flugel Mpc. |
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gstump Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2006 Posts: 934
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Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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HERMOKIWI wrote: | It's a long held misconception that reducing the diameter of the cup automatically results in higher range. We each have an optimal cup diameter that matches our physiology and embouchure and allows us to maximize our range. Deviating from that optimal diameter reduces our ability to maximize our range.
Changing to a shallower mouthpiece can make it a little easier to produce your existing range but should not be considered a way to increase your range to any significant degree.
You increase your range by developing the technique consistent with increasing range, developing the physical ability to employ that technique and employing that technique through a mouthpiece that is optimal for your physiology and embouchure.
Unless you're playing on a mouthpiece that's clearly wrong for you or on a trumpet that has mechanical issues that compromise the ability to play in the upper register just changing equipment won't do much for you in terms of increasing your range. |
I could not agree more. Changing diameters to increase range is counter intuitive. The problem for many young players may come from the readily available and reasonably priced used Bach mouthpieces. So if a young player wants to increase range they go from a 3C to a 10 1/2C! Not good. To many variable changes.
Once you find the optimum diameter for your face you can turn up the treble by going to a more shallow cup depth. This usually adds efficiency to your upper range. But you will sacrifice some mid range and low end breath of tone. Tighter back bores can help meter the resistance and add intensity. But these experiments are very expensive these days.
Please think long and hard before changing a cup diameter that is working for you.
Happy New Years! _________________ Schilke B5
Couesnon Flug (1967)
Funk Brothers Horn Section/Caruso Student |
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Dieter Z Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Jun 2013 Posts: 451 Location: Mountains of North Carolina
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Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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My experience is that a tighter throat will add some back pressure to the playing and assist in playing in the higher register. _________________ B & H Sovereign 928
Conn 80A
F. Besson Brevette Kanstul made
B&S Challenger II 3137 rl
Buescher 400 - 225 (WWII)
Benge 90C
Eastman 540 D/Eb
ACB Fluegelhorn
Selmer Picc
ACB mouthpieces for most of my playing |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2362 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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lots of good points - I would like to point out that the Yamaha 16C4 is not what I would call a deep cup.
I've found Yamaha C cups to be a good all-around depth and have had good success with them in all registers. Of course, other variables are you and the trumpet - how it all works together.
the cup depth for me mostly affects the tone and where the notes "slot" - naturally, the notes we most notice are the ones at the extremes of our range, or are the most finiky.
I am not one that likes the extremely shallow mouthpieces, about as shallow as I get is a Curry 3M, for high parts (big band lead) or picc
~ I often use a Yamaha 14B4 with my picc which feels like it is slightly deeper/rounder _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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