• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Carol Pocket Trumpet Valve Issues


Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Dan O'Donnell
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 01 Jan 2005
Posts: 2287

PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:12 pm    Post subject: Carol Pocket Trumpet Valve Issues Reply with quote

TH Friends,

A while back, I purchased a new Carol Pocket Trumpet from The Horn Trader that I use for practice only.

Off and on, I have found the valves to jam up.

I cleaned it thoroughly and I use Ultra Pure Valve Oil.

Today, I found that if I rotate the valves very slightly and take out any "play" with the slightly loose radial movement of the valves (like many horns have) the valves get hung up with the feeling of "metal to metal".

I now know why it happened on and off...it all depends if the the position of the valve was rotated to either side of the small radial movement and since this changes with fingerings etc. it was hit or miss.

Saturday, I am taking it to my Brass tech. however, I wanted to know if any of you who own one found the same problem.

Please let me know because I am interested in what you found as the root cause...Valve Guide?...etc. etc. etc.
_________________
God Bless,
Dan O'Donnell

"Praise Him with the sound of the Trumpet:..."
Psalms 150:3
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mm55
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 01 Jul 2013
Posts: 1261

PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I;ve had absolutely no problems at all with my Carol CPT-300LR (which I believe is the same as the current CarolBrass CPT-3000; same valves). I bought it used, and I have kept it well lubricated with Hetman #1. I use it for practice when traveling, and occasionally for jamming when traveling, including outdoors in the northern winter, and the valves have never shown so much as a hiccup. Occasionally I have had minor issues with the 1st and 3rd valve slides, but never the valves.
_________________
'75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
'89 Rudy Mück Conductor crnt
'13 CarolBrass CFL-6200-GSS-BG flg
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
etc-etc
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 19 Jan 2008
Posts: 5575

PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rotating valves is best avoided as it scores the valve pistons in the wrong direction (perpendicular to valve piston motion). For tight valves, such as in your Carol, you may want to wipe off the valves and casings with a moist chamois cloth every time after playing, then re-oil - but do not rotate.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jvand678
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 802
Location: TX

PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan,

My first instinct is always that the valves and/or casings are dirty. With this being a new(ish) horn it could also be shavings from break in.

After cleaning them, if it still hangs, it could be something as simple as a slight burr on one of the valve port edges. The final hand lapping mvt is generally going to be up and down so it may have the burr worn in in one position and not in a another. Either way, fairly easy fix and your repairman should be able to knock it out in a few minutes.
_________________
Joe Vandiver
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dan O'Donnell
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 01 Jan 2005
Posts: 2287

PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I appreciate all of your responses!

I'll write back with my Brass Tech.s input after he fixes the issue.

Thank You!
_________________
God Bless,
Dan O'Donnell

"Praise Him with the sound of the Trumpet:..."
Psalms 150:3
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Venturi
Veteran Member


Joined: 02 Apr 2012
Posts: 256

PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good thing you've cleaned it thoroughly.

That said, I wonder whether you've used a mild detergent in the cleaning process. New valves shed minute particles of metal as they get broken in, and in my experience you need to wipe the valve conscientiously with cloth to remove the fine layer of oil + metal particles that forms with early use -- and, sometimes, treatment with a solution of mild detergent (like Dawn) really helps the process.

The wiping doesn't get the particles within the valve ports which can then move into the vale casing -- but the detergent will.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jvand678
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 802
Location: TX

PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Venturi wrote:
The wiping doesn't get the particles within the valve ports which can then move into the vale casing -- but the detergent will.


Guess I should've elaborated a bit more on cleaning them

They can also get quite a build up while in storage waiting for their new owner in certain spots on the casings. If I can see the discoloration, I usually can't get that buildup out with dish soap. It usually takes a tougher approach like LIGHTLY polishing it out with brasso, a lint free cloth and a dowel. Then I go back with the dawn and a casing brush to remove any of the cleaner.
_________________
Joe Vandiver


Last edited by jvand678 on Fri Aug 01, 2014 5:43 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
superviking805
Veteran Member


Joined: 17 Dec 2009
Posts: 134
Location: Santa Barbara

PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It usually takes a tougher approach like polishing it out with brasso,


Brasso removes metal. I sure would not use on the valves in any horn I wanted to keep.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jvand678
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 802
Location: TX

PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

superviking805 wrote:
Quote:
It usually takes a tougher approach like polishing it out with brasso,


Brasso removes metal. I sure would not use on the valves in any horn I wanted to keep.


Very true, as do lapping compounds (when fitting the valves) and metal to metal contact when the valves are moving (even with valve oil). If Brasso scares you, perhaps Maas would be more suitable. Either way, with corrosion buildup, something has to be used to remove it.

Good luck,
_________________
Joe Vandiver
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bwoodard
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 08 Jan 2009
Posts: 621
Location: Mich.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess I don't understand the issue with rotating freshly oil valves in the casing to help distribute the oil. When valves and cases are lapped during final fitment it is in a rotational direction, not horizontal. I have rotated valves in all my horns for years with no issue.
_________________
Veteran comebacker!
Bob

2015 Harrelson Summit 4/10
2014 Getzen 4895 Flugelhorn
2014 Getzen 3850
2010 Callet Sima Bb
2010 Callet Sima C
73 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
48 Conn 80A Victor Cornet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
trumpaholic
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 1501
Location: Lindsay Ontario Canada

PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have owned 4 Carol Brass horns. Hetman worked best in all of them. I suggest using some Hetman 2 in it as my experience with Ultra Pure is that the oil is too thin. Using brasso is NOT a good idea, I would send it back to whoever you bought it from if it is still under warranty. I currently have a Carol 8060 H GLS with very tight valves and use Hetman 1 in it.
_________________
Have horn, will travel!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
veery715
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 4312
Location: Ithaca NY

PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Give it a thorough cleaning and make sure you get inside the ports and through tubes between valves. Then use some of Flip Oakes valve oil, which is formulated with a detergent which helps to clean valves as they are breaking in. Sit with the horn and work the valves up and down while watching TV or something; clean and re-oil often and the problem should go away.

Rotating valves is never a good idea. It is not necessary to do this to distribute oil as capillary action will pull the oil into the gaps. I know we often need to rotate them when inserting them to get the valve guides to snap into place, but this is the only rotation one should ever do. If the valves seem to get tight when you turn them a little, that is normal, as the wear pattern gets centered in the middle of that slack, and will be tighter at the end points.
_________________
veery715
Hear me sing!: https://youtu.be/vtJ14MV64WY
Playing trumpet - the healthy way to blow your brains out.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
TrumpetMD
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 Oct 2008
Posts: 1805
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:11 am    Post subject: Re: Carol Pocket Trumpet Valve Issues Reply with quote

Dan O'Donnell wrote:
however, I wanted to know if any of you who own one found the same problem.

I've owned a Carol Brass Pocket Trumpet for about 2.5 years. I use it to practice at work maybe 3 times a week, so it gets a fair amount of regular use. I use Hetman #1 valve oil.

For about the first month, the valves gave me problems, and would regularly stick. If a little oil didn't fix the problem, I'd wipe down the valves and casings with a lint-free cloth, and re-oil. After about a month, this went away. After this, the valves have worked very well.

Mike
_________________
Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Bach 6CFL Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yourbrass
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Jun 2011
Posts: 2746
Location: Pacifica, CA, USA

PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Today, I found that if I rotate the valves very slightly and take out any "play" with the slightly loose radial movement of the valves (like many horns have) the valves get hung up with the feeling of "metal to metal"."

Sounds like grit got in there and scored the valves/casings. Might even be a factory error. It might smooth out with use, or a light lapping of the pistons might be in order. Your repair person will know.
-Lionel
_________________
"Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
Pickett 3D/25
https://yourbrass.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
gbshelbymi
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 03 Jan 2013
Posts: 1032
Location: Travelers Rest, SC

PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a CarolBrass 3880 cornet that, when new, would stick fairly often. Once I cleaned the valves well with detergent and a swab, then oiled them with UltraPure, they worked flawlessly.
_________________
Greg
---------------------
Getzen 3850 Custom - Kanstul 1525 Flugelhorn - Getzen Severinsen Eterna LB - 70s Bach 180ML37 - 70s Bach CL 229 25C - CarolBrass Pocket - 40 Conn 80A etc.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
loweredsixth
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 1760
Location: Clovis, California, USA, North America, Earth, Solar System, Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Universe

PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Carol valves were sluggish with Ultra Pure. When I started using Hetman's everything cleared up. I think I use Hetman's Light.
_________________
The name I go by in the real world is Joe Lewis

Trumpet: Carolbrass 6280H
Flugelhorn: Carolbrass 6200
Mouthpieces: Bach 6BM
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
LittleRusty
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 10738
Location: Santa Clara, Ca

PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

veery715 wrote:
Give it a thorough cleaning and make sure you get inside the ports and through tubes between valves. Then use some of Flip Oakes valve oil, which is formulated with a detergent which helps to clean valves as they are breaking in. Sit with the horn and work the valves up and down while watching TV or something; clean and re-oil often and the problem should go away.


Not sure that I would use Flip's oil on tight valves if this is true.

shofarguy wrote:
Bill,

I also get a waxy build up above the Amado key in my main tuning slide and also the water key on the bell branch of my flugelhorn. The one on the flugelhorn is hard to get with a brush snake. The trumpet tuning slide is much easier. Just brush it in a hot water stream.

I think the plug is from the small amount of paraffin that is in Flip's valve oil. Are you using his oil? Great stuff, but with my body chemistry it does form those plugs.


That said Flip knows more about trumpets and oil than I ever will.

veery715 wrote:
Rotating valves is never a good idea. It is not necessary to do this to distribute oil as capillary action will pull the oil into the gaps. I know we often need to rotate them when inserting them to get the valve guides to snap into place, but this is the only rotation one should ever do. If the valves seem to get tight when you turn them a little, that is normal, as the wear pattern gets centered in the middle of that slack, and will be tighter at the end points.


Didn't Reynold Schilke believe that the valve should never be rotated and when oiling never pulled out?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
chuck in ny
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 3495
Location: New York

PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well. everyone gushes about carol valves so when i got my 3880 i expected super slick action. the action was adequate, and it was of course a new horn, so it was oiled and cleaned frequently. i had some valve sticking and didn't get too excited, just rinsed the valve, swabbed the casing, and re oiled.
i am using ultra pure to use up what came with the horn and thence to hetman 1 which is my normal oil. i wouldn't be surprised if the ultra pure isn't the exact medicine. it is a new cornet that is breaking in so i am not concerned how things will turn out. hopefully it's a super slick action, maybe it won't be, as long as they go up and down that will be fine. i'm a snob about a lot of things, for some reason not valves, kanstul valves are fine, carol valves are fine, the criterion is simply lack of sticking. piston valved brass make wonderful owner maintained instruments and i am very happy with the engineering.
i have heard the admonitions against valve rotation and so don't spin mine in their casings. to lionel and others, does rotating them really score them, or is this issue overstated.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Dan O'Donnell
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 01 Jan 2005
Posts: 2287

PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update:

Based on your feedback (and a very kind worded PM) I decided to clean the valves and casing in order to switch from Ultra Pure to a different oil.

When I wiped the valves and casings with a white towel; there was no black residue.

I then used a mild dish soap, soaked the valves rinsed and dried them.

I switched to Zaja oil because after switching to Ultra Pure in all of my other horns; I have so much left.

So far, I am unable to replicate the failure; however, I am cautiously optimistic.

My Brass Tech. told me over the phone it sounds like I need to have the valves lapped ($66.00) however, he didn't know for sure until he inspected the valves.

We'll see...If this doesn't work out for the long run...I'll take the horn to him.

There is a good possibility that the Zaja oil being a little "thicker" just might do the trick by masking another issue.

If so; I'm curious as to why Carol Brass provides a bottle of Ultra Pure with their horns unless...mine was slightly defective from the manufacturing facility causing the need to change oils???
_________________
God Bless,
Dan O'Donnell

"Praise Him with the sound of the Trumpet:..."
Psalms 150:3
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LittleRusty
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 10738
Location: Santa Clara, Ca

PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Better results with a slightly thicker oil might indicate that the valves are looser than necessary.

When I brought my 72 strad to YourBrass with sticky valves thinking a lapping might help he was willing but suggested I try a thicker oil instead. The problem went away with the oil change.


Last edited by LittleRusty on Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group