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w00005414 Veteran Member
Joined: 09 Feb 2005 Posts: 384
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Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 3:57 pm Post subject: position of aperture in relation to teeth opening |
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Hi all,
First off, I've had a lot of success with BE (thanks Jeff!)
I've notice that other methods talk about getting the aperture of the lips to line up in-between the space between the teeth in order to expose the lips to the air stream. Is this a necessity with BE? My roll in happens inline with the top teeth and not in the space mentioned. I've been trying the following suggestions to get the aperture to line up....
- frown (I can't seem to coordinate this)
- Tense the top orbicularis oris lip muscle downward (that unrolls my top lip though)
- Promote a huge air pocket in the bottom lip which lowers it (and in effect lowers the top lip)
Any thoughts? _________________ Brian Gibson |
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Larrios Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2003 Posts: 794 Location: Serooskerke (Walcheren), The Netherlands
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Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 2:17 am Post subject: |
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Hi Brian,
The easiest and most effective way that I know of to accomplish this, is to simply tongue off the top lip. You may want to reread the sections about TOL in the BE manual. To me, if I had to pick one, it's the most important exercise in the book.
Ko |
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trumpetteacher1 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 3404 Location: Garland, Texas
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Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 7:27 am Post subject: |
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Ko is right on the money.
Brian, I read your post in the other forum. In my experience, BE covers all the bases that you are experiencing, but you MUST do the exercises properly. TOL is a critical part of BE.
The solutions that you propose indicate that you are starting to understand a core issue, so that is good. Yes, the idea of getting your lips to position parallel to the space between the teeth opening is part of BE. I don't say it in the book (exactly), but it is actually the primary reason you do TOL.
Please email me. I will be happy to work with you to get this issue resolved.
Jeff |
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w00005414 Veteran Member
Joined: 09 Feb 2005 Posts: 384
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Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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trumpetteacher1 wrote: | Yes, the idea of getting your lips to position parallel to the space between the teeth opening is part of BE. I don't say it in the book (exactly), but it is actually the primary reason you do TOL.
Jeff |
Hi Jeff/Ko,
Thanks for the reply, what Jeff said above is really helpful and kind of an "ah-ha" moment for me. Way back when I started BE I figured I would try TOL full-time (or a variant of tonguing with the top of the tongue hitting the pallet at the same time having the tip of the tongue hit off the back of the bottom lip). This is even though TOL was described as a "means to an end" and most-likely not a full time position (...hey...I admit...I don't listen all the time). I did a lot of playing last night and had my lesson this morning and found that for me the forward tongue in general (described by Reinhardt, Pops, and a lot of other methods) isn't right for me in my normal playing. I will continue to use TOL merely as an exercise now and will keep in mind what it's intent is. And I know...I know...not using the forward tongue is probably going to be received like a fart in church with some people... sorry if I offend you
Back to my normal tongue position.... I personally play best with my tongue tip back up against the pallet. I can really tell it's true by playing a piece completely slurred (which ends up super clean and with a great sound, it's "ahhh" all the time) and I then overlay the tongue to compare. With the forward tongue it sounds crappy/inconsistent, but with the tongue tip hitting the pallet it sounds just like the slurred version. I just need to remember this and stick with it. My theory behind why this is true is I believe the forward tongue directs/focuses the air too much directly at the chops, if I tongue farther back with the tip of the tongue it defuses the air a little and opens up my mouth cavity to give the air a place to resonate (again, just my theory).
So...as far as building range goes, which was the post Jeff referes to I put in the "Funadamentals" forum) I guess I only have 3 tools at my disposal since I don't have the forward tongue available to me.
- Breathe like a muthah! (something I forget to do, the rolled in embouchure conserves so much air that I can literally play with almost no air... a blessing and a curse because when I need to 'turn it on' I sometime don't have the air in the tank to lean on....REMEMBER, BREATHE BRIAN!!!!)
- The rolled in lips
- Any sort of wedge breath or upward motion with the belly
I might shoot you an email to discuss Jeff, thanks again
- Brian _________________ Brian Gibson |
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trumpetteacher1 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 3404 Location: Garland, Texas
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Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Brian,
Yes, please do email me.
However, I'm concerned that you won't believe what I have to say.
I believe that there is a reasonable chance that you are simply making an error in perceiving your situation. I have some ideas about why this is so, but I need to see and hear what you are doing before narrowing it down.
I've had several people tell me that, in their experience, TOL was impossible for them. It turned out to not be true, that they had to make an adjustment which they had never considered.
My current model in doing online lessons is to have players send me files of them doing the core BE exercises. In that way, problems are usually quickly revealed. If you have this capability, it would be very helpful.
And I don't charge for this (currently) so you have nothing to lose except a possible misperception.
So yes, let's get this nailed down once and for all, OK?
Jeff |
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w00005414 Veteran Member
Joined: 09 Feb 2005 Posts: 384
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Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:05 am Post subject: |
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trumpetteacher1 wrote: | Hi Brian,
Yes, please do email me.
However, I'm concerned that you won't believe what I have to say.
I believe that there is a reasonable chance that you are simply making an error in perceiving your situation. I have some ideas about why this is so, but I need to see and hear what you are doing before narrowing it down.
I've had several people tell me that, in their experience, TOL was impossible for them. It turned out to not be true, that they had to make an adjustment which they had never considered.
My current model in doing online lessons is to have players send me files of them doing the core BE exercises. In that way, problems are usually quickly revealed. If you have this capability, it would be very helpful.
And I don't charge for this (currently) so you have nothing to lose except a possible misperception.
So yes, let's get this nailed down once and for all, OK?
Jeff |
Hi Jeff, I will get these videos on my to-do list, thanks. (it might take a bit). As always, thanks for being there for us _________________ Brian Gibson |
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trumpetteacher1 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 3404 Location: Garland, Texas
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Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Brian,
Please contact me before you create videos. I think we need to make sure we are on the same page, and go from there.
Looking forward to it!
Jeff |
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