Squeeze the lips?

tptguy · Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2003 10:31 pm Post subject:

O.K, fellow SuperChoppers:

Did Jerry ever tell you NOT to squeeze the lips while playing? I think he told me that once sometime in 2001, but I do not recall just what he meant by that. Maybe I failed to seek clarification...???

Sincerely and thank you,

Lex Grantham

tptguy · Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2003 10:40 pm Post subject:

It is Jerry's conviction that the lips can never get strong enough to meet contemporary (or baroque) trumpet demands. Rather, he pushes compression onto the tongue. In TCE he states, "When you have perfected this special tongue-lip setting, the lips will feel as if you are hardly usiing them."

This has been my experience., I never squeeze the lips to ascend. I setup with a very relaxed, "non-playing" embouchure. The setup is like "talking with a lisp". Squeezing the lips is not part of SC. If you squeeze hard enough to get the upper range you'll always sound like you are squeezing hard enough to get the upper range!

Best regards, Kyle

goldenhornplayer · Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 11:45 am Post subject:

My response to Lex as follows: To answer your question I need to clarify the difference between SC and TCE. When Jerome was teaching SC (as in the SC book), it was all about center compression between the lips. The only way I can see to accomplish that was to press the lips together. When he evolved that into TCE, however, the compression was created between the tongue and top lip, taking the bottom lip, more or less, out of the equation. In short, the tongue took over the previous function of the bottom lip. Now, Jerome will clearly say to never press your lips together. To do so forces the tongue backward and anything that causes the tongue to move backward is very, very bad.

Lex Grantham · Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 3:35 pm Post subject:

Ken:

If the tongue virtually takes the place of the lower lip in TCE, then what does the lower lip actually do to contribute to the overall situation?

Sincerely,

Lex Grantham

tptguy · Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 7:22 pm Post subject:

Lex, Here are Jerry's words from SC:

"Both lips touch each other all across the mouth."

"The chin bunches and pushes up the area just below, and across the entire lower lip. When doing this you will get a more perfect seal across the lips. "

In SC, Jerry has you concentrate on these specific points. In TCE, Jerry believes that proper use of the tongue will take care of these points automatically. That has been my experience too. Either way, the result should be the same.

Best regards, Kyle

goldenhornplayer · Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 4:56 am Post subject:

Lex. that's a great question. I believe Kyle answered it very well, as usual. In my own case, I don't think that much about the bottom lip except to make sure that I'm not pressing it upward against my top lip as I ascend. As I mentioned earlier, that forces the tongue back and must be avoided in TCE. Generally, the answer to your question is that the bottom lip helps to seal. That's why the bottom lip and top lip are together but not pressed together. Another function for the bottom lip is to serve as an anchor, so to speak, for the tongue tip to rest against and even push against. That makes it easier for the top of the tongue to bevel upward against the top lip. What you want to end up with is the tongue acting as the insulator between the lips and teeth so that the lips are never crushed against the teeth. I think Kyle would agree that, as you get more comfortable with TCE, you stop thinking about what the tongue is doing on the bottom lip and concentrate on what it's doing on the top teeth and top lip. After all, it's what it's doing there that really counts.

Lex Grantham · Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 5:01 am Post subject:

[ This Message was edited by: Lex Grantham on 2003-12-16 08:09 ]

tptguy · Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 6:31 am Post subject:

Ken, Thanks for the great posts. At first, I didn't look closer to see who "GoldenHorn" was. But after reading the posts, I said to myself, "Yeh, this guy really knows his stuff!" Then, I checked and saw the rest of the name. :>)

BTW - As you may know, I tried that "golden horn", actually had it set aside for myself for a little while but couldn't justify it with all the Callet horns I already owned. Mike Ponella tried that gold Jazz against 1 or 2 others and settled on one of the others. Both Jerry and I thought the one in your hands was the very best. That's one sweet horn. Don't ever get rid of that baby!

<<I think Kyle would agree that, as you get more comfortable with TCE, you stop thinking about what the tongue is doing on the bottom lip and concentrate on what it's doing on the top teeth and top lip. After all, it's what it's doing there that really counts. >>

This is just what Jerry outlines in his TCE book. Secret #3 works on lower lip. Then, Secret #4 works tongue against upper teeth and lip. Secret #5 concentrates more on upper lip. I find that I must go back and forth between the various "Secrets" as one helps the others.

Best regards, Kyle

Dave Converse · Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 6:33 pm Post subject:

Wow! All these pieces to the puzzle keep showing up just in time to keep me chasing the demon. Thanks Ken and Kyle. This thread seems to be causing a badly needed adjustment in my approach. After pondering your descriptions here, I went back and re-read all 5 "Secrets" (for the umpteenth time) and for the FIRST time, ALL of Jerry's descriptions seem to fall into place for me. I just never before felt like I really understood the top lip/tongue compression. By removing the bottom lip from conscious participation, I think I get it now. Today's practice was definately different. Dave

edtaylor · Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 1:19 pm Post subject:

Ken,

It is great to have you back on TH. Though I remain an amateur I owe any progress I have made to you and to Kyle. Many thanks to both of you!
_________________
Ed Taylor . . . a Messianic gentile

Bruce Lee · Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2003 6:40 am Post subject: