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Alex_q Regular Member
Joined: 02 Nov 2014 Posts: 19
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Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 6:55 pm Post subject: Conn 22B |
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I am considering to buy a Conn 22B from the early 1920's....it's silver plated with some wear. Is this a good trumpet? I plan on using it until the end of college (I'm in sophomore year of high school right now. Also, please don't tell me to buy a Bach Strad; I don't have anywhere close to the amount of money needed for that). For purely cosmetic reasons, is it possible to strip worn silver plate off of a trumpet? Any response is appreciated. Thanks |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12677 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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There have been quite a few discussions about this horn. Even though people will post here you might want to consider searching.
There was a discussion a few weeks back about "stripping" silver. My take away from that thread was, you don't strip silver. Removing it without removing the base metal is something best left to professionals since it is quite different than removing lacquer. It can be buffed off, but that will probably remove metal. |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9379 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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It's a good trumpet as long as the valves aren't worn too much. Someone like Anderson's Plating can remove silver plating, but most all silver-plated Conns of this era were sandblasted before plating to give them a "satin" finish. When stripped, the brass will be rough unless it's buffed smooth. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12677 Location: Gardena, Ca
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JonathanM Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Posts: 2019 Location: Charleston, SC
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Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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Others may have more to add along this line, but the '20's is quite an old instrument; obviously we're closing in on 100 years here. Short answer? The 22B is a marvelous instrument. I've had one from '27 (if my memory serves me correctly) that was a jewel. I've got a 1924 24B that is phenomenal; Conn was making horns then that still leave me amazed.
I appreciate (greatly) the quality of workmanship that is obvious in so many Conn's from the '20's BUT they're not always easy to play. As stated above, valve wear is a concern. So is valve alignment - an old horn can become really challenging for a laymen to adjust (I've tried without success in some instances). Also - is the third slide a manageable pull? This alone can make a horn a dread to play (or practice).
If you're looking for a horn to last you a long time I'd almost say you definitely want to play it before committing. If not, as in a long distance purchase, see if you can work a short period to be sure the horn is a good fit for you.
Good luck and keep us informed how you decide, ok? No question is foolish in your position (although on a forum such as this a thick skin can be a good thing). _________________ Jonathan Milam
Trumpets: 18043B, 18043*, 18043 Sterling Silver +, 18037 SterlingSilver+, Benge 4x, Olds: '34 Symphony, '47 Super, '52 Recording
Flugle: Strad 182
Puje: American Belle
Cornet: Olds Recording & Super |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9379 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:36 am Post subject: |
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Even though the 1920's era Conns are 80-something years old, there are nice ones still out there for sale. I bought one a couple years ago that is in fantastic condition, practically no wear on the finish or valves.
_________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham
Last edited by Dale Proctor on Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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EdMann Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Mar 2007 Posts: 2482 Location: The Big Valley
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Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:44 am Post subject: |
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A good one can be one of the most valuable purchases you can make for your playing. It's an easy blow, the sound is as big as you want it, they're very in tune when you get one lined up right, they project like lasers and don't break up when you step on the gas. It was the first used/antique horn I purchased, and from the first blow it felt that was some guy in there wearing a bowler hat playing ragtime. The upper register can be a little squirrely, and one big pro recommended something else for lead work, sensible. I use mine for brass quintet and any symphonic work that comes up. Pop in a 1 1/2C, big as a house.
ed |
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rockford Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Aug 2007 Posts: 2477 Location: Northern VA
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Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:09 am Post subject: |
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My Conn 22B is from 1946. I can tell why the old pros like Vachiano liked them. Very easy to play with a nice full sound for recording, radio broadcasts or many live engagements throughout the day. All the stuff the old timers did several times a day. Fun to play. _________________ Bill Siegfried
NY/Mt. Vernon Bach trumpets. Yamaha flugelhorn and piccolo A/Bb, Monette and Hammond mouthpieces. Fender and Peavey Cirrus Bass Guitars. Ampeg and Genz-Benz amps. Embraer 170/175/190. |
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harleyt26 Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2011 Posts: 107 Location: Summerfield, Fl.
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Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 4:18 am Post subject: |
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My 1923 was originally raw burnished brass not silver plated. I had it buffed and lacquered to protect it. The valve casings were copper for a few years back then, the copper is soft and would wear pretty fast so the raw brass ones are difficult to find with readable serial numbers. Mine was showing wear but the numbers are still good and should be for many years to come.
_________________ Thank you,
Tom Hodges |
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Ed Kennedy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 3187
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Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:34 am Post subject: |
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Stripping silver is is a nasty chemical job involving nitric acid. It will also leave the surface etched and require buffing that will thin out the metal.
If a horn has been bead blasted (they use glass beads), buffing to get a smooth finish will also remove a fair amount of brass from the instrument.
I suggest looking for a lacquered brass 22B. Other used instruments that might work for you: Olds Super (think Uan Rasey), Yamaha 6310B, 6310Z or 6335 (orH or HII) . |
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Irving Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1891
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Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:58 am Post subject: |
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Try it before you buy it. I bought one on ebay that was unplayable. Not saying that yours will be a dog, but just to make sure you like it, play it for a few days if possible before buying it. |
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shmo_joe Veteran Member
Joined: 01 Feb 2008 Posts: 215
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Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:58 am Post subject: Re: Conn 22B |
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also check conn victor 22B trumpet
it looks like 22b but has no 22b marking
thse are newer horns from 1950s, and they play good
Alex
Alex_q wrote: | I am considering to buy a Conn 22B from the early 1920's....it's silver plated with some wear. Is this a good trumpet? I plan on using it until the end of college (I'm in sophomore year of high school right now. Also, please don't tell me to buy a Bach Strad; I don't have anywhere close to the amount of money needed for that). For purely cosmetic reasons, is it possible to strip worn silver plate off of a trumpet? Any response is appreciated. Thanks |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9379 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:08 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, I also have a '68 Conn 22B Victor, which is basically a modernized version of the 22B New York Symphony. The '68 Victor I have plays "brighter" than the '29 NYS, but they both are nice horns with an easier-than-normal upper register.
1968 22B Victor
_________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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Steve Hollahan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Oct 2005 Posts: 519 Location: Charlotte, NC
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Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:15 am Post subject: College horn |
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Check for Accent top of the line trumpet, also, John Baptiste 900 series trumpets. These are Bach Clones by B & S, but don't cost anywhere near what a Challenger 1 costs.
We had one at the store, sold for under $400. Nice horn. Almost sold my Bach and picked up the Accent. _________________ Steve Hollahan
Bach 37, 229 C
Yamaha 9620 D-Eb, 741 C, Flugel
Kanstul 900 piccolo trumpet
Sculptured Recrafting Custom Instrument Repair
and Restoration
www.sculpturedrecrafting.com |
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shmo_joe Veteran Member
Joined: 01 Feb 2008 Posts: 215
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Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:17 am Post subject: |
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I bought 40's 22b and (50's or 60's) Victor from ebay around the same time
fixed them both did valve jobs and a aligment at dr valve
to make the story short, I kept Victor and sold old 22b
victor sounds a little bit brighter (it turned out to be a great player as well)
and it plays easier on high register than old 22b
Dale Proctor wrote: | Yeah, I also have a '68 Conn 22B Victor, which is basically a modernized version of the 22B New York Symphony. The '68 Victor I have plays "brighter" than the '29 NYS, but they both are nice horns with an easier-than-normal upper register.
1968 22B Victor
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Tarh331_Dad Veteran Member
Joined: 30 May 2013 Posts: 185
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Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:20 am Post subject: Re: Conn 22B |
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Alex_q wrote: | I plan on using it until the end of college (I'm in sophomore year of high school right now. Also, please don't tell me to buy a Bach Strad; I don't have anywhere close to the amount of money needed for that). |
WITH THE PROVISO THAT THIS IS COMING FROM A FORMER CLARINET PLAYER WHO IS NOW A TRUMPET/FRENCH-H0RN DAD.
If you want to win the competition and get the job, then whore yourself like everyone else and get a dull boring uninspiring insipid Bach with a 37 mandrel in 0.459, and sound like a little girl on prozac playing a flugelhorn.
But if you care about The Art, and if you have the strength of character to deal with the fact that you will lose the competition and the gig, then get yourself a Conn Elkhart in 0.438 with as large a bell as possible, and be God-like in your awesomeness [or, in the interests of not committing blasphemy, maybe I should say "archangel-Gabriel-like in your awesomeness"], awesomeness which will make all of your competitors look like the sorry little panty-waist losers whom they really are [despite the lies to the contrary as told to them by their female band directors and their female trumpet teachers and their mommies and of course the woman who will be judging the competition].
The ne plus ultra in Conn Elkhart 0.438 awesomeness is the 1950S/1960s 38B Connstellation with the 5 & 1/8th bell. To the best of my knowledge, it is the greatest trumpet ever conceived of by the mind of man, and it is surely what Gabriel used to level the town of Jericho.
Elkhart 38Bs go for $750 to $1250 on fleaBay, depending on condition.
During that era, Conn Elkhart also made two other 0.438 horns with 5 & 1/8th bells: The Victor 6B with a brass bell, and the very rare Victor 10B with the copper "coprion" bell. The 6B is the safe choice for orchestral work, and goes for $350 to $450 on fleaBay. The 10B, though, with the copper bell, is reputed to have a much darker sound, and so all the little prozac girls want to charge it on their daddies' credit cards, making it priced more like a 38B.
Now the 22B is a much older design [Conn has been making the 22B for almost a century now], and its bell is only 4 & 5/8ths inches in diameter, so it can't readily deliver the overwhelming decibels which conductors want in the cavernous modern auditoriums, and these days it is best used for chamber music and near-chamber music [like the Haydn or Hummel concerti with a smaller-sized orchestra in accompaniment].
And while the 22B was Conn's top-of-the-line legit horn through about 1955, with the emergence of the new 5 & 1/8th bells, the 22B became their "intermediate" legit horn, and the Chevrolet/Buick/Cadillac progression would have been Director ["student"] to 22B ["intermediate"] to 6B/10B/38B ["professional"]. Note that by the 1960s, the quality of the craftsmanship in the 22B might have started to slide as a result.
In any event, you should be able to get a really outstanding Elkhart 22B for no more than about $400.
And you do NOT want to invest in any Conn horn made after 1970 [or very early 1971], when the new owners shut down the Elkhart plant and moved everything to Abilene.
Finally, here are a few sample horns on fleaBay right now [generally speaking, they come and go so quickly that you don't want to get too emotionally involved with any single auction].
1) Here's a very clean-looking "intermediate" 22B, from 1959, which shouldn't go for more than about $300 [you'll know that it isn't a 6B if it has a smaller bell]:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/311181397643/
2) EDIT - nope, this is another "intermediate" 22B. Sorry.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/331384238661/
3) And here is a gorgeous 38B which is probably priced just a little too high right now [unless some totally awesome Dad or Grand-Dad were to grab it as a Christmas present for someone in his family, in which case it would be the Greatest Christmas Present Evah!]:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/381056473835/
Last edited by Tarh331_Dad on Fri Nov 21, 2014 7:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Tarh331_Dad Veteran Member
Joined: 30 May 2013 Posts: 185
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Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:43 am Post subject: |
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A few other thoughts:
1) If you have a silver allergy, then wait patiently for a nice brass horn or gold-plated horn to show up.
2) If you purchase off of fleaBay, then be sure that the seller puts plenty of bubble wrap on the horn before gently [not forcefully] closing the lid on the case and boxing up the case for UPS. The leading cause of damage in transit is the horn jostling WITHIN ITS OWN CASE, and the bubble wrap holds the horn snug. Remember that the old cases have HARD interiors, and that soft, form-fitting interiors are a very recent development. [Dudes who sell horns for a living know all about this stuff, but Mom-n-Pop "Antiques Roadshow" businesses, who scroll the estate auctions looking for resellable items, tend not to be aware of it].
3) Believe it or not, there are still some modern case manufacturers shipping cases with hard interiors. For instance, Protec cases tend to have hard interiors, whereas Gator cases tend to have soft form-fitting interiors. In particular, the Gator "GL-TRUMPET-MUTE" is a super nice case for student use:
http://www.gatorcases.com/p/115185-968/gl-trumpet-mute
You can get it at Amazon or fleaBay. |
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lipshurt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 2642 Location: vista ca
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Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:31 am Post subject: |
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well.....there is some miss-info in this thread
First off, the 22b after 1955 is still a good horn at the same level as the 6b and 10b etc
second, the bigger bell 438 bore horns (38B, 6b, 10b) are not "better" than the small bell horns (36b, 8B, 22b) 438 horns. Its just a matter of preference. And there are/were PLENTY of players who went with the smaller bell option. (freddie, tom harrell, et. all) so all of that stuff is just weird to say.
All of the 438 conns are pretty dark is sound actually, and the big bell Vs small bell is more of a feeling while playing than it is a difference in sound. There is a small difference in sound but the big bell feels like a much bigger horn.
the small bell wide wrap 438 horns (8b, 36b) feel better to most people than the 22b does. But there are certain players and certain mouthpiece combinations that really work with the 22b.
Its all about trying things, and even more than that, its about having a good working example of the horns to really get an idea of how they compare. Its pretty hard to get a good dialed in example of each of those horns all in one place at the same time. Thats probably never happened in the last 30 years or so _________________ Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt |
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trUMBet67 Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Sep 2003 Posts: 220 Location: Italia
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Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 8:58 am Post subject: Re: Conn 22B |
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Alex_q wrote: | I am considering to buy a Conn 22B from the early 1920's....it's silver plated with some wear. Is this a good trumpet? I plan on using it until the end of college (I'm in sophomore year of high school right now. Also, please don't tell me to buy a Bach Strad; I don't have anywhere close to the amount of money needed for that). For purely cosmetic reasons, is it possible to strip worn silver plate off of a trumpet? Any response is appreciated. Thanks |
Dont't strip anything for cosmetic reasons.
I have a great 1927 22b that had silver stripped don't know when in its life. It plays great, but the projection is a bit less than an older 1925 gold plated one. If possible, try it.
Perfect intonation and easy upper register, a joy to play! Real trumpet sound! I have also a 22b New York Symphony Special. Another instrument. Heavier, denser timbre, more classic. The 1956 38b Connstellation I own is also great, very dark timbre. _________________ Umberto -
Bb: Taylor Chicago II Lite,Conn 38B,Olds Super,Olds Recording,Conn 22B (3),Bach 180 37 modified
C: SLB Callet New York
Flugel: Getzen Eterna 895S-T
Cornet: Getzen Eterna 800 LB Copper,Conn 28A,B&H Imperial
Piccolo: Schilke Herald Bb/A |
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derby_mute Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2006 Posts: 343 Location: France
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Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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My recommendation is avoid buying one that is worn. With patience, you can find one that has minimal wear with less likelihood of having worn valves. My rule of thumb, especially when buying on ebay from poorly informed sellers, is wear on the horn=wear on the valves. You DON'T want to spend $150-200 and then need to spend $300 for a valve replate.
Too bad as you just missed out on a very, very nice one I had for sale on ebay, from 1926, which just got ONE bid at my asking price, $299. Which is a steal for any vintage horn that plays good. That one is now on its way to England - which is where the last one I sold went. It was also a peach - from 1922.
DO consider a later 6B or a 10B (as has been suggested by others) - they are great playing horns and lighter weight than the supposedly "better" Connstellation. I mostly play cornet, but if I wanted a trumpet to use on a regular basis I would go for an early 22B or a 6B/10B.
Be patient for a good 22B and you'll sooner or later find one. _________________ Cornets:
Selmer model #43
Selmer Concept
Baldwin Custom (Blessing Artist stencil)
1923 Buescher shepherd's crook
1880 F. Besson Paris
Trumpets:
1931 Cleveland Greyhound
1935 Olds French model |
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