tptguy
Jerome Callet Forum Moderator
Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 3380
Location: Philadelphia, Pa
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 Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2003 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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Teemu
Veteran Member
Joined: Nov 24, 2002
Posts: 105
From: SF Bay Area
Posted: 2003-02-22 17:04
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I would like to know from some of the players who have successfully changed to the SC Embouchure how difficult it would be to change back to their original embouchure. Is it easy to play EITHER embouchure once you master SC or is it a one-way street? I'm hesitant to mess with something that basically works yet I am curious about SC and don't want to leave that stone unturned. Thanks for any input.
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tom turner
Heavyweight Member
Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 1630
From: Georgia, USA
Posted: 2003-02-22 21:58
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Hi,
I can't imagine ever wanting to change back from the SC embouchere at all. We all have a few "bad days," and mine now are the times when the old, "bad" habits creep back in. As soon as I realize I'm doing this I immediately get back on the SC track and the problems cease!
No gig ever concerns me anymore . . . whether playing sole lead trumpet in a five hour big band gig or playing for a week, three times a day (including non-stop for five hours at the night session) at a large worship conference last spring. It was at the worship conference (where I was popping Double C's, D's and E's regularly) that I came to appreciate all the benefits of the SC way!
With SC giving me the same wonderful tone I had before converting . . . along with a full octave and a half more range . . . AND greater endurance . . . AND much greater flexibility . . . WHY WOULD I WANT TO GO BACK?!!!
My first forty years of playing were of the conventional way . . . as a high school kid, music major, Army trumpeter, working professional and as a semi-pro later.
Now I'm enjoying playing the trumpet at a new level. I'll never go back. I can't imagine anyone else would either who has successfully made the transition!
Sincerely,
Tom Turner
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Dave Converse
Veteran Member
Joined: Jan 05, 2003
Posts: 128
From: Nashville, Tn.
Posted: 2003-02-23 05:24
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If you go back and read thru the old posts, you'll find that many of us who switched to SC, did so after many successful years using some other method. It's just that we had some things in our playing that limited us from reaching certain levels that we were determined to achieve, and Jerome Callet has shown us a way to overcome those barriers. As my friend Tom says, why would we want to go back to that old, lower level?
Having said that, I think we SCers would admit that SC is not for everyone. I personally know players that have wonderful range, endurance, sound, and generally great command over the instrument, and would never suggest they consider changing anything at all. If you are happy with these aspects of your playing, stick with what works for you. If not, check my previous post (Superchops Final Exam) and other testamonials on this board, and give SC a try. It ain't easy, but it's been worth it to most of us who did.
To answer your question more directly...............probably not (very easily). To quote my main hero, "you can't serve two masters." Dave Converse
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Teemu
Veteran Member
Joined: Nov 24, 2002
Posts: 105
From: SF Bay Area
Posted: 2003-02-23 17:54
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Tom & Dave,
Thanks for your feedback. The way you described the improvements gained Tom, I understand that you would not change back. I guess I was really wondering if each embouchure was mutually exclusive of the other. Ideally I would like to work on SC while still using "what I have" in order to keep playing in symphonic band... I don't really want to drop out for a lengthy period of time. I took a 30 year vacation from playing and have regained a good portion of my prior abilities over the past 4 or 5 months; although I never had a range above about a high G. On the other hand, I haven't really needed to play higher but it would certainly be interesting and fun. The other improvements you described Tom, would certainly be welcomed and appreciated by me. I am intrigued by the SC method, although it sure looks funny and seems unnatural but I guess if you're blowing everyone out of the water no one is going to be laughing at you. However, if you look funny and can't even play at 50 years old.... you're gonna get a lot of free advice from the last chair guy. Anyway, I'm open to new ideas and I'm probably not capable of ignoring SC.
I'll keep you posted on any progress as I have appreciated all the information presented on this forum by all.
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Sharks Hockey Fan
Schilke & Wild Thing Trumpet Enthusiast
Interlochen Alumnus
Charlie Proctor
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tom turner
Heavyweight Member
Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 1630
From: Georgia, USA
Posted: 2003-02-23 19:22
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Hi again,
When Lee converted me to SC in the spring of 2000 I made unnatural progress compared to lots of others. So did my son Russell.
Lee has said this was because I was already doing some of the SC things right, such as:
1. Downsized mouthpiece
2. Very little pressure exerted
However, what I wasn't doing correctly was the center compression "thing."
Instead, I'd always been trained to tighten the corners and OPEN up the aperture between the two lips in the area inside the mouthpiece . . . "bass-ackwards" of the SC approach!
"Unlearning" the lip muscles and retraining them to do the opposite was a real challenge . . . taking hours just to finally produce a note for a couple of days. However, I refused to "cheat" to produce a sound and within a few days had recovered more than I'd been able to do during the first 40 years.
It really didn't take me long to convert. There again, if I'd tried to retain the way I'd always played I don't think the SC breakthrough would have come.
Can I revert back to my old "smile" embouchere at will? Gee, I THINK so . . . but then again, my chop muscles have now been retrained to operate differently so I'm not sure.
OLD MAN LOOK . . .
Looking in the mirror I can see the "automatic" chop compression, along with moderate "chin bunch" . . . but NOTHING like Lee gets. Frankly, Lee's chin bunching is extreme compared to other SC players I've seen.
I learned a long, long time ago that the world won't stop turning, or even care, if ol' Tom Turner sounds like crap for a few days in order to make a huge change in my playing skill. The same is true for you!
Go for it! What do you have to lose? It's so cool to play lead on a five hour dance gig and be the only trumpeter in the section not worn out after the fourth hour. Heck, I still feel fresh at the end of the gig! SC works.
IS SC WEIRD?
No, I don't think so at all. I think successful players who have never even heard of SC use some of the SC principles . . . even if they aren't aware they do! A band director in my area always learned to play by shaping his chops in an "M" as he ascended . . . corners NOT rising but with the top lip pushing down on a lower lip pushing up IN THE MIDDLE!
Your biggest challenges are:
1. Retraining chop muscles
2. Being dedicated to making the change
3. Being dedicated NOT to cheat
Good luck! Again, the changes . . . if adopted . . . will make you a better player!
Sincerely,
Tom Turner
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Dave Converse
Veteran Member
Joined: Jan 05, 2003
Posts: 128
From: Nashville, Tn.
Posted: 2003-02-23 20:13
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Teemu,
Tom is telling you correctly...............Once you commit, you need to really commit. My fortunate buddy is also admitting that his transition was somewhat miraculous as far as the time it took compared to most of us.
It is my contention that you CAN work on SC in the practice room and play your performances with your "old" method. It takes longer that way, but you DO have to take care of business. In fact, I believe that there might be an advantage to doing it that way if you make it a point NOT to try to use SC on the job. I mean, it will creep into your performance little by little until you can reach a level that you're comfortable with in public. Sometimes, in our dedication, we over-do things and wind up frustrated. But in the practice room........stay on track with SC only. Dave C.
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Lex Grantham
Veteran Member
Joined: Nov 13, 2001
Posts: 341
From: East Texas
Posted: 2003-02-24 00:26
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There are always going to be individuals who will appear to have things going in the right direction and others who will just have to take a bit longer to get to whatever goal is trying to be reached. And then maybe some persons simply will not quite succeed as well as desired.
Tom is fortunate that being a good tonal player early on helped him to keep that concept intact while promoting the SC attributes. Then one day, everything unfolded for him like a beautiful flower...what a situation to be able to experience.
I am not able to play double register notes...not even a solid F or G above high C...but one must strive however he/she sees proper for success. It just takes longer sometimes.
Speaking of looking funny when playing trumpet...many years ago, there was a very good high school (and later college) band director in East Texas who could really reach those higher pitches on trumpet. He had been the big band soloist when in college. Latwer on, anytime he took his bands to some event, there was no mistake that he was the soloist on many jazz pieces played by his band...he could really soar, so to speak. At the time that I was aware of him, there was no SC (at least by that name ) yet. However, now that I think about it, he may have been using SC conventions as he performed. That was, of course, in the 1950s and 1960s. BTW, that gentleman, even though retired from teaching, still plays his trumpet on a frequent basis.
As far as trying to go back to whatever one did before SC...wasn't the reason for attempting to change to SC because one desired something that might have been lacking in his/her playing? But the decision either way has to be that of the person experiencing the results (whatever they might be) for playing the horn.
Sincerely,
Lex Grantham
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nicolashuang
Veteran Member
Joined: Dec 06, 2002
Posts: 125
From: Singapore
Posted: 2003-02-24 04:58
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tom turner, when you said that you have to retrain your muscles, does this mean that you might loose some muscle strength in the proccess? What happened to me was, I tried to change to SC from a previous embouchure. When I read about centre compression and corners totally relaxed, I actually got the wrong idea. I had my corners relaxed but my centre was tightened (by pressing the upper lip against the lower). It worked for a while and then I noticed that my left side starten to weaken and my right corner was tighetening. Soon after, I had to resort to a "smile" just to prevent air from escaping from my left. It just got weaker until recently, it is impossible to prevent air from escaping from the left, and the left lips protrude. I've been off the trumpet for a week and plan to stay off for this following week. Do you think this is due to muscle retraining or just overstrain? Stretches and tears are ruled out as I don't feel any pain. But on my days off the trumpet I feel a very slight ache or discomfort rather, at my left cheek. What do you sugguest? And if.. if my lips ever recover after this week what do you sugguest I do to train my lip muscles the SC way?
THanks,
Nicolas
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CRJAZZMAN
Regular Member
Joined: Nov 30, 2001
Posts: 85
From: Cedar Rapids, IA
Posted: 2003-02-25 04:39
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Teemu,
I have played lead trpt most all of my life. I have always had a double G - A range. In my late 30's I decided to go for the brass ring and would explore new methods and equipment to get there. As I tried new mpc's I discovered that the smaller ones (I had always played on smallish lead pieces) forced me to be more efficient with my air. Then I read about SC and these guys were advocating using very small mpc's to compliment the SC set up. I decided to give it a try. My tone was better immediately! I could now get better tone than guys playing much bigger mpc's. I had times when I struggled, and times when I would stop and go back to my old set up. Then I would make myself come back and try again. Over all I took about a year to make the transition. I did a lot of Arban and Clark studies and tongued (single dbl and trpl) everything I could get my hands on! I now can play a long gig with out fear of running out of power! My practice room range has recently increased to an F above Dbl C! I did this repeatedly doing octave slurs starting on C and going up, up, up. Until SC I could never hit a Dbl C and now I can hit one almost when ever I want to, and of course that has made playing anything below that much easier!
Fantastic tone and a greatly increased register. Who could ask for anything more? Be patient, put in the time and effort and it will come.
Good luck!
_________________
SC gave me a double C!
Matt Canfield
email crjazzman@yahoo.com
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nicolashuang
Veteran Member
Joined: Dec 06, 2002
Posts: 125
From: Singapore
Posted: 2003-02-25 06:18
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btw can someone explain to me what exactly is centre compression and corners being totally relaxed? When you do a semi pucker without a smile, are your corners relaxed? And what is the muscle that actually forms an air seal to prevent air from escaping from the corners?
Thanks
Nicolas
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tptguy
Heavyweight Member
Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 556
From: Philadelphia, Pa
Posted: 2003-02-25 23:06
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Relaxed corners are out away from the teeth, never pulling back towards your ears. To illustrate, press your index finger against both lips in the center of your mouth. Now, blow out a little and feel your corners relax and move forward away from the teeth. When you pull back at the corners towards your teeth you thin your lips. Relaxed corners allow the lips to bunch and stay in the mouthpiece. Hope this helps some. Best regards, Kyle
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The General
Veteran Member
Joined: Nov 07, 2001
Posts: 343
From: Londonderry, NH 603-421-9178
Posted: 2003-02-26 18:14
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Nicolas,
O.K. You asked for it, so here it is. I’ve added a little “inclusionary” text:
The group of muscles responsible for controlling the "chop" muscles are known as the "orbicularis oris" muscles. This is really a network of muscles, some of which are used in Superchops, for center compression, and for control of the muscles at the corners of the mouth.
Jerry Callet talks about "bringing the upper lip down"... the muscle group responsible for this action is called the "depressor septii" muscles. In order for this muscle group to function properly, it must meet resistance from the lower lip muscles, known as the "mentalis" muscles. These allow the lower lip/chin muscles to raise the lower lip, usually upward, and outward... however, with the trumpet mouthpiece in place, and the teeth in an open position, these muscles can be rolled in or out.
Now, the "key" muscle group, specific to the Superchops-type embouchure are the "triangularis" muscles, which cause the corners of the mouth to turn down, in a "U"-shape. This action draws the chop muscles down, and outward, so that where we feel our "corners" is lower, and down on the jaw.
Finally, the “buccinator” muscles play a very important role in what we do. Here is its description:
Buccinator originates in the maxilla and mandible in the area of the molar teeth and inserts into various muscles at the corner of the mouth. It acts to compress the cheeks tight to the teeth, and tighten and pull the lip corners inwards and somewhat laterally, often dimpling the cheeks. It forms a large part of the lateral wall of the mouth. Its functions include keeping food in the mouth where it can be masticated by the teeth. Because of its importance in expelling air through pursed lips, blowpipes, or wind instruments, it has been called the "trumpet muscle."
There will be a TEST on this material.
I sure hope that it helps. I learned a lot more than I already knew. A little research can go a long way!
Best regards,
Bruce
_________________
Bruce Lee - http://www.NorthernBrass.com - (603) 421-9178
... "Dedicated to the Comeback Trumpet Player"
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tom turner
Heavyweight Member
Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 1630
From: Georgia, USA
Posted: 2003-02-27 16:44
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Quote:
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On 2003-02-24 04:58, nicolashuang wrote:
tom turner, when you said that you have to retrain your muscles, does this mean that you might loose some muscle strength in the proccess? . . .
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Hi Nicolas,
Sorry for the late response. I've just gotten back in town after being away from a computer since Monday afternoon.
It looks like you've had some good answers since you posed your questions so I won't cover them again. However, I will address the first one:
______________________________
"when you said that you have to retrain your muscles, does this mean that you might loose some muscle strength in the proccess?"
______________________________
No, you won't lose muscle strength during the transision. What is happening is that you are having to endure a process where slightly different muscles are having to be "trained" to do slightly different things to prevent the leakage of air. You can expect things like this to happen when you are converting over.
Sadly, the English language will always actually be a confusing barrier when trying to describe what to do to accomplish the very small changes in muscle control to make embouchere changes. That's what makes teaching and learning embourchere issues so tough sometimes for people . . . we don't all grasp what the other is trying to say.
In the end you'll find a "relaxed" corner set up still DOES require enough "pressure" between the lips to provide an air seal . . . but no more. As your chops refine the new motor skill functions you'll discover exactly what "relaxed corners" means AND feels like!
Hope this helps!
Sincerely,
Tom |
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