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Which Do You Like Better? |
Standard Spit Valve |
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64% |
[ 50 ] |
Amato Water Key |
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35% |
[ 27 ] |
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Total Votes : 77 |
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chuck in ny Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Sep 2006 Posts: 3601 Location: New York
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Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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i voted for the tomato key as most of my horns are so equipped. the standard keys are solidly nice with their easy water dump. what i think is the factory goes for amado for slick industrial design. i greatly like this. the keys are way down the list in choosing instruments. i am just as happy with either standard or amado. with amado they need a drop of oil on top as they are actuated, and having spare guts on the shelf in the appropriate finish. if you develop a problem do the snap ring routine and swap out the parts. not the best system nor the worst. |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6196
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Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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The version of Amado by CarolBrass (similar to the initial design by Ray Amado!) dispenses with the circlip and has instead a screw-in rear cover that can be easily unscrewed by hand and taken out for maintenance. |
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rpoutan Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Jan 2009 Posts: 141 Location: Wausau WI
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Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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Has anyone tried the Pollard Water Key? Please give a review. It is advertised to solve the two major problems with the Amado: the lack of a good seal and the sticking of the valve, either closed or open. |
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tommy t. Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Mar 2002 Posts: 2599 Location: Wasatch Mountains
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Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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dershem wrote: | acritzer wrote: | Neither. I like my Saturn Waterkeys. But between the two you listed...I'd go with standard |
+1 |
I also find the Saturn to be excellent. Then Amado (treat it like the piston valve that is is -- oil it and clean it once in a while).
Tommy T. _________________ Actually, I hate music. I just do this for the money.
Last edited by tommy t. on Sat Feb 14, 2015 3:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6196
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Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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The poll should have included at least three more options:
Pollard,
Joy,
None. |
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spitvalve Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 Posts: 2166 Location: Little Elm, TX
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Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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My 35+ yr-old Getzen flugel's Amado keys have worked fine. They stick a little if I haven't played it for awhile, but I keep a push pin in the case to pop them out. As long as I put a drop of valve oil in now and then they don't stick. _________________ Bryan Fields
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1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1977 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
1995 UMI Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces |
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Tostado Regular Member
Joined: 18 Oct 2012 Posts: 15
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Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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I haven't tried them...yet...but the pollard keys made by jason harrelson have caught my eye. |
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razeontherock Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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jhahntpt wrote: | Amado water keys are a nice novelty until they get stuck. You'll curse their very existence after that. |
Take it apart and clean it once in a while. |
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21trumpet Veteran Member
Joined: 06 Jan 2007 Posts: 310 Location: So. California
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Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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I just took apart the water key on my Monette trumpet last week and cleaned it out for the first time. I was having a problem with it draining properly but not it works perfectly. I was very surprised how easy it was to take apart and put back together. These are very simple to take apart, no need to remove a clip that used to require a special tool. I have always preferred these type of spit valves. _________________ Yamaha YTR-9335 NYS III
Bach Commercial - LT190SL1B
Yamaha YTR-9445 NYS-YS - C Trumpet
Wild Thing Flugelhorn - Copper - Raw
Yamaha YCR2330 Cornet
Yamaha Custom Piccolo
Monette B4S S2 Mouthpiece |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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Just TODAY discovered that a standard key that gets clogged with what I guess was slide grease is WAY more difficult to clean than an Amado; very tough getting the stuff out of the hole in the slide without removing the lever. The Amado is fairly easy to disassemble (just watch that tiny spring!), the lever key can be a bear to put back on without that spring tool. (Found that out the hard way many years ago).
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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ottoa57 Regular Member
Joined: 28 Jan 2010 Posts: 86 Location: Macomb, Mi.
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Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:03 pm Post subject: WATER KEYS |
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Well, I'll jump into this subject with peril... I always replace the standard water key on any trpt I play ( IF it has one ).... the 1st reason being: I feel...an amado or amado style just sounds better...in the past year, I have gone to the Pollard water key...it has a "cone" shaped cylinder and works far better than any water key to date and sounds better too.
I also have used the " Lee Key" that Dr. Lee invented for his Carol Brass instruments... I find these to be one of the best " sounding" water keys.
To me there is something " detrimental " about the tension created by the spring on the critical bend of tubing right there on the tuning slide...Try this: untighten the screw, play a scale.... and re tighten the screw on the standard water key...darn if you'll hear a change in the sound. By removing the extra hardware and pieces of metal right there,, and NO spring tension on the tuning..there's where I FEEL the improvement lies.... I know this will bring shouts of B.S> but this is how I feel.
This is just MY opinion and experience...I have always liked the small "tweek" of removing the standard water key and installing either the Pollard water key... LEE KEY 2nd...the Saturn is 3rd for me...and Amado is a distant 4th..they do jam and stick w/o oiling frequently.
http://www.pollardwaterkey.com/
FWIW ( for what its worth )
Otto
[/url] _________________ Otto Alcon
Warburton Consultant since 1986
Stomvi Forte, w/AGR & full trim kit
Yamaha Flugel YFH 631
Getzen Eflat/D |
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James Becker Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 2827 Location: Littleton, MA
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Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 8:47 am Post subject: |
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Otto's observation of the variability of water key screw tension is very real and is one of the tipping points on a brass instrument where you can dial in or out the blow resistance of your instrument. Factor in different pad materials and you've got even greater variability.
Another consideration that has not been raised is how the added or reduced weight of different water key types contribute to the playing characteristics of an instrument.
Ultimately it comes down to player preference, and clearly Otto has found what works, and more importantly sounds best for him.
As I've previously mentioned, we've installed all varieties of water keys and are happy to accommodate the wants and needs of our customers. It's important to know what to expect so you can choose what's best for you.
Keep in mind if you do choose genuine Amado water keys you must keep them oiled at all times to maintain good action and proper seal. You certainly would not expect the hyper tight piston valves of a Schilke, Yamaha, Blackburn or Monette to work without oiling them! _________________ James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com
Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US |
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Steve Maricle New Member
Joined: 03 Feb 2015 Posts: 1 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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I play a CRB custom Bb cornet with Amado water keys. It is the first horn I've ever owned (since the 60's) with Amado mechanism. Charles Butler built my horn using Olds Ambassador valve cluster, Kanstul lead pipe, and Getzen Eterna cornet crook bell; my happy experience is that Butler placed each of the water keys in the best place so as to not interfere with the air stream, nodes, tone, etc. I don't know if the water port in the leadpipe is any smaller than regular water key lever ports.
I contacted Butler about a year ago to ask about the main leadpipe Amado water key sticking open. I had not oiled the piston regularly, nor did I know that I should lubricate it. Now I lubricate it regularly to avoid failure in the middle of performance...
I agreed with Charles, that if you play regularly, there's really not much opportunity for the water key system to stop in open or closed position. Even so, I used a combination of Hetman oils (oil that is too light--like valve oil--has not always been enough to last beyond a few days, so I mix in some heavier Hetman oils.
By the way, The CRB cornet is wonderfully built, it plays and sounds great. Olds Ambassador valves are great, and the Amado keys are keepers on this horn. |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2349 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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On my various horns I have both - I seriously have never had an issue with the Amado water keys.. and in 25 years of military band play and 35 plus of gigging I can only remember one instance of a cork falling off during a gig-an old cork that just fell apart.
I've had one that became stuck after a long period of storage/non-use but it was easily fixed with some valve oil and a paperclip.
The con for me, is when the instrument gets dirty, the Amado keys aren't as forgiving at releasing water - but again an easy fix--> keep the instrument clean. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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tommy t. Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Mar 2002 Posts: 2599 Location: Wasatch Mountains
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Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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zaferis wrote: | ....
The con for me, is when the instrument gets dirty, the Amado keys aren't as forgiving at releasing water - but again an easy fix--> keep the instrument clean. |
Can't argue with clean, but if it does happen that a water key clogs during a set it is usually quick and easy to blow back through it and clear the blockage. (It seems to be obvious, but this is a board for trumpet players ... so ... do be sure to hold the valve in the open -- that is, in the water draining -- position while blowing and remember to clean the insides when you get home.)
Tommy T.
P.S.: might not hurt to give the horn a quick clear water flush during the next break -- that bit of peanut is still in the horn someplace. _________________ Actually, I hate music. I just do this for the money. |
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ENINCA Veteran Member
Joined: 13 May 2005 Posts: 185 Location: California
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Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:49 am Post subject: Lee's Keys |
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etc-etc wrote: | The version of Amado by CarolBrass (similar to the initial design by Ray Amado!) dispenses with the circlip and has instead a screw-in rear cover that can be easily unscrewed by hand and taken out for maintenance. |
Yes, the "Lee's Keys" that my Carol horn came with are the best. Much better than the Amados I have on my flugel. The Lee's Keys drain better and can easily be taken apart for cleaning. It's an excellent design. I'm thinking of having some installed on my flugel. _________________ "Some days you get up and put the horn to your chops and it sounds pretty good and you win. Some days you try and nothing works and the horn wins. This goes on and on and then you die and the horn wins." -Dizzy Gillespie |
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Dennis78 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2015 Posts: 673 Location: Cincinnati
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Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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I voted for levers-just like them better, but it really doesn't matter as long as I get one on both slides as I hate the dump slide, I tend to make lots of water, emptying constantly on both slides and it still runs out the bell _________________ a few different ones |
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William B. New Member
Joined: 05 Nov 2016 Posts: 9 Location: Valley Grande, Alabama
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Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:26 am Post subject: |
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etc-etc wrote: | The poll should have included at least three more options:
Pollard,
Joy,
None. |
Agreed. The Joy water key is a strange creature. _________________ I got some horns. |
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bworth Regular Member
Joined: 17 Feb 2018 Posts: 35
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Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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I prefer the standard water key. |
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dershem Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 Posts: 1889 Location: San Diego, CA
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Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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dershem wrote: | acritzer wrote: | Neither. I like my Saturn Waterkeys. But between the two you listed...I'd go with standard |
+1 |
+2 _________________ BKA! Mic Gillette was my mentor and friend.
Marcinkiewicz Mic G. trumpet, Custom Marcinkiewicz mpc. (Among others)
Marcinkiewicz Rembrandt flugel, Benge 8Z cornet, King 2B, Bach 36, Benge 190, Getzen 3062... many more. All Marc. mouthpieces. |
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