Bach Inconsistency

AeroStud1026 · Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 1:41 pm Post subject:

I was wondering...I know especially on this board ive heard "Bach is inconsistent" out the wazzhoo but people have told me today...that bachs arent as inconsistent as they were....im talkin the brand new bach strads today..I was at a store today which had a strad 180S-37 with the trigger 1st valve....every1 said I sounded really good on it...but it was the only strad they had so i didnt buy it cuz i had nothing to compare it to.....I was just wondering like are bachs very inconsistent till this day? or have they turned things around this past year or so as far as the new instruments go?

bgwbold · Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 2:05 pm Post subject:

Went to the Dallas Trumpetfest pretty recently and played a 37*, a 43* and a couple others and they seemed okay to me. Valves were good, intonation was good, etc. If I had been in the market, I would not have worried about either of these but they were the only two I played very much. Was unimpressed with some other more expensive brands.

Mike

WaxHaX0rS · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Jul 2003 Posts: 524

The guy at the music store told me that he never heard of people complaining of bach inconsistency. But then again, he played trombone primarily and he was a salesman. But he was a retired band director and gave lessons part time and he seemed very nice. He gave me a free polishing cloth and valve-oil and a sweatshirt, haha. Anyway, he might have just been ignorant, but I seriously doubt he was dishonest.

cujazztrpt · Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 3:17 pm Post subject:

Well I guess no horn is perfect not unless you own a ten grand monette(yeah right). Well just have to work our way around the horn and develop techniques to correct discrepancies.
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oneeyedhobbit · Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 4:36 pm Post subject:

As far as I know, the Bach's of today are much better than the Bachs of the 80s, as in nowadays you won't get an absolute dog-but their QC still leaves room for improvement. It would still probably be best to try to compare at least a few Bachs, as far as I know.

gustav · Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 4:41 pm Post subject:

There at on time in the late 80's up until the mid 90's there was some problem with manufactering process and brass that they could obtain. And I guess as a Bachoholic I would admit. At that time they were going through a labor dispute also. The Bachs of today are very well built, better than most. Granted not total hand made. Alot of music stores have some older stock horns and they are not great,some not even good. But i have played those from the late 90's up until today and most are good,some are proud to own. I will first to agree that not all Bach's play the same but do you really want a horn that sound just like the others. The sound for any player is in the eye of the beholder.

BrassClass · Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 5:33 pm Post subject:

I tried out several Bach's in different stores and they all played great - would have had no problems with any of them. Ended up having a saleman that was a trumpet player help me pick one out. The one I bought was his favorite on multiple days at the store - he always came back to the same horn - and I liked it a lot too. It's a great horn but so were all the others. There may be some bad recently made Bachs out there but I haven't seen them yet.

Also my daughter started band this year and I'm renting a Bach 1500 for her. It really surprised me how good it played. It does have a very tight 3rd valve slide but it's still a player.

Levermann · Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 10:14 pm Post subject:

I had the pleasure to play about thirty Strads with serial numbers 500 000 and above last year. They were all great horns The only dog Bach I ever played and owned was a L bore from the Seventies.

bgwbold · Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 4:11 am Post subject:

I personally think the QC criticism must be overblown. I don't know if the DFW dealers went out of their way to select the best examples, but doubt that they would have time to play test all of them that were on display. The new ones I picked up and played (both lightweights) were every bit as good as my early 80s regular weight models. If I was looking at a brand new horn, I would have to consider Bach along side Yamaha, Schilke, Calicchio, Kanstul, Conn V1 and Lawler.

Mike

johntpt · Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 5:51 am Post subject:

I would agree that Bach seems to be much more consistent these days. If you find one that you like, then buy it!

I also really like the valves on new Bachs much better than Bachs of say 10 years ago.

JU

PH · Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 6:14 am Post subject:

Bach developed a reputation for inconsistency in the late '70s and '80s. I would agree that the horns WERE inconsistent then. However, a good Bach from that period was and is still an excellent trumpet. Since then the plant has gone through major changes in management and philosophy and the horns are now once again consistently fine instruments.

Wm. Adam always made a trip to the Bach factory once or twice a year to select horns for his students. For many years (during the period in question) he would play dozens of horns and only find 3-5 that he felt his students should buy. By the mid-90s the quality control had improved dramatically and he found that over 80% of the horns he tried were fantastic.

This is one of those stereotypes that may have been true at one time but is no longer true, no matter how many people keep beating it.

It's like, "Girls can't play lead trumpet." Tell that to Liesl or Laurie, or Janell...

tom turner · Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 6:48 am Post subject:

Pat is right. Bach has apparently woken up and is FINALLY pushing quality again. It's about time!

Vincent Bach remained with Selmer as a STRONG consultant . . . INSISTING that the mass-maker NOT ruin his creation for many years after he sold out in 1961 (the year I began playing trumpet).

As he got older (and Selmer bolder), things slowly changed. By the time Mr. Bach died in 1979 the "hen wasn't guarding the hen house" anymore. Selmer had this attitude that "no horn sounds like a Bach" . . . and a feeling that people would blindly purchase any old piece of crap that they sent out to a dealer.

My local dealer showed me some real crap that came his way in the late '70s and early '80s. I'm talking about pinky finger hooks that were soldered on VERY crooked . . . solder blobs dripping down the sides of the fittings . . . terrible valves . . . even the Bach label stamped on terribly. Some of the horns played even more miserable too. For a few years, the silverplating was pitted terribly within only a year too! Bach also didn't give a damn anymore about their dealer network. They felt the dealers HAD to take the crap because their brand was the only player really left at the time.

By this time (late '70s) Selmer had deep-sixed their competition (Olds, Reynolds, King, etc.) and Yamaha was not yet on the scene. Additionally, the premiere Benge trumpet had been purchased and totally ruined by UMI. The perfectionist Mr. Bach was dead . . . and his horns were being cranked out by money men who were driven to cut as many corners as possible . . . both in workman's wages and morale . . . and quality control. Pat knows the names of the people I'm talking about that ran Bach during the darkest years. They were NOT out to build you the best horn . . .

Bach is damn lucky to be in business today. That hard-won reputation for cranking out real crap is hard to live down . . . as the blind belief drilled into aspiring music teachers that "one HAS to play a Bach" is equally as hard to erase!

Yes, today Bach IS doing a great job. Not because, I suspect, the company has rediscovered integrity and also totally rededicated itself to build a great horn . . . but more so because their COMPETITION forced them to do so to survive and thrive.

Another big thing going for all mass-makers today is the CNC machinery that allows a computer to make consistent parts BETTER, on average, that only the most skilled workman could before. This allows EVERY company willing to invest in these computer-numeric-controlled machines to make better parts.

It STILL comes down though to the person who is actually MAKING the specimen that you will try. Is he/she sober today? Is he/she experienced? Are they proud of their company and their work? Do they feel like doing a great job for a great company? Does their company reward outstanding work or just push them to crank out lesser work?

Bach has seemingly awakened to the fact that, if they want to survive, much less dominate in the future, that they must again strive to treat their workers well and encourage great work.

In the meantime . . . some of us have discovered that there's "life after our 1980's Bachs."

In ALL CASES though, I'd recommend that everyone actually TRY the horn (Bach or otherwise) they plan on buying before making a purchase. Lots of the old "dogs" remain still in the music stores of the world. They continue to be rejected and passed over by players who buy, instead, a good Bach. They only sell the dogs to those people who lack the experience to know the difference and are only buying because of the past reputation and recommendations of a teacher.

No one deserves to be cursed with a dog of a horn that should NEVER have left the factory. That goes for ANY brand.

Sincerely,

Tom Turner

Jon Arnold · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Jan 2002 Posts: 2026

Yesterday in my new Giardinelli catalog there is a full page ad about the quality of Bach trumpets. It goes into great detail to assure potential customers that Bach trumpets are of quality and consistency. Maybe this is a response to the "talk" about Bach horns among trumpeters. I was at a music education convention last year and tried many horns out and the one I would have taken home was a Bach Strad Model 37. I thought it played much better than my 1989 Model 37. I loved the way it played and sounded. That's just my preference. I still love my Z however. I like Yamaha too. Zenos are ok horns.

Larry Smithee · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 4399

Bill Dishman · Heavyweight Member Joined: 06 Feb 2003 Posts: 1174

My students usually spend two to three sessions trying out horns. We try about 20 -25 horns of various brands in the first session judging tone, pitch problems, consistancy across registers, response etc.

By the time we are down to 8-10 their chops are tired so continuing would not give a true evaluation of the horn so we come back with just those 8-10 and winnow them down to 5 or three. By this time they have played so many horns they are not really worrying about the brand but rather the way the horn sounds and feels.

At the end of the second session or possibly the third, a final choice is made.

This is usually done when the chops are in good shape to truly judge the horn without the fatigue factor being a part of the mix.

My experience with the Bachs is that for the last couple of years or so, the consistancy is much improved. There are fewer horns with excessive pitch problems. Quality of craftsmanship seems much better as well.

One aspect I have to keep reminding them about is that different bell/bore combinations respond differently so one combination may have different playing qualities than another with different set ups. Any particular player might prefer one over another due to individual playing characteristics.

I'm lucky our local music store generally keeps a large selection of trumpets for customers to try and are willing to let my students take the time to select a good horn for them.

Bill Dishman
Gainesville, Florida

AverageJoe · Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 7:56 am Post subject:

I used to manage a music store in Atlanta from 2000 - 2002, and I can say that Bach has come a LONG way in making a more consistent horn over the last 10 years. I used to play-test every trumpet that came thru the door, and I only found one that just wasn't quite right (it was a silver 37 with a reverse leadpipe). The rest were all players -- 72's, 37's, 43's, 25's, 239 & 229 bell C's with 25H, 25S, and 25A leadpipes...etc., reverse lead pipes, standard lead pipe, lacquer, silver...you name it. In my opinion, the Bachs are back! Thanks to Yamaha and the like for pushing them to get back to consistency!

Paul Poovey

[ This Message was edited by: AverageJoe on 2004-01-06 11:00 ]

jophst · Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 8:05 am Post subject:

I have no evidence to support my opinion, but I think Yamaha's professional hornline and quality has sparked a revamp in Bach's quality control as well. And it ain't over yet ... when Yamaha comes out with the hyped up Malone design, it may be even more competition.

If it plays like a Yamaha and sounds like a Bach, I'll be sold. Maybe Yamaha "reinvented the wheel" this time around!
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