eBay Bach trumpet #2559 - BE CAREFUL!!!

DavesTrumpet · Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:15 pm Post subject:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2371047780&category=41400

Be careful bidding on this horn. After saving the image of the bell and reworking it in Photoshop, it reveals the bell to be an Elkhart, IN bell.

The finger hook looks suspect too.

I'm not accusing the seller of fraud or misrepresentation, but just make sure to do your homework before bidding. This is NOT a completely original NY Bach.

Dave M

AeroStud1026 · Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:19 pm Post subject:

hah..you could see elkhart on the bell with the photos he has on there
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bdev · Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:27 pm Post subject:

You sure can. I can see it in the pics he posted.
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DavesTrumpet · Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:30 pm Post subject:

I notified the seller that the bell is not original to the body and that he'd probably have very many bids from people thinking the horn is an all-original NY Bach. We'll see what happens.

Dave M

TimBrown · Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 7:43 pm Post subject:

Yeah, I could see "elkhart" also.

Not to be nasty, but i messaged him asking if it was a real new york. I asked him what it says on the bell.
We'll see what his reply is.

Tim
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jophst · Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 7:55 pm Post subject:

More than likely the bell was replaced at one time by this "famous" jazz musician that I've never really heard of.

The body looks as if it could be New York style. The stop rod has broken off though and there is no saddle on the 1st valve slide.

I doubt this guy will end the auction though.
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supportlivejazz · Heavyweight Member Joined: 05 Jan 2003 Posts: 3757

From a quick google search...Al Youngman...

Final Cadence

Albert Yodzonis '48 of Worcester, MA, died November 19, 2002, in a nursing home. He was 89. Born in Brockton, MA, he served in the U.S. Army during WWII, and was awarded two Bronze Star medals. A trumpeter, he studied at Berklee in the late 1940s. Working as a professional musician under the stage name of Al Youngman, he led his own band and backed such artists as the Lennon Sisters, Bobby Vinton, the Temptations, and the Four Tops. He also directed bands on cruise ships, and at state fairs. In his later years, he worked with numerous local ensembles, including the Worcester Symphony Orchestra.

Also, was there normally a first valve slide saddle on the early Bach Strads?

Meanwhile, I wonder what this old dog will fetch/

TimBrown · Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 8:33 pm Post subject:

My trumpet instructor back in the 70's had either a new york or a mt vernon. He had a trigger put on it because it did NOT have a saddle. My early elkhart did not have a saddle. I've seen early horns without them. I think another indicator is found at http://www.hoferblech.de/

click on "bach stradivarius" they have a NY #1288 there.

BTW, my old lacqer strad is there. Take a look and tell it hello for me!

Now did I do good or what!?!

Tim

[ This Message was edited by: TimBrown on 2004-01-05 23:37 ]

tom turner · Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 9:04 pm Post subject:

Hi,

I don't believe the rest of the horn is NY Bach either!

The leadpipe is WRONG . . .

The pinky hook is completely wrong, the original ones were sharply upturned on top and didn't extend as far on top either . . .

The tuning slide appears to be taller (top to bottom leg) like all the post 1955 Bachs vs. the narrower (by 1/4 or so) of the pre-56 Bachs, all original Benges and F. Bessons.

The top valve caps and buttons are totally WRONG! . . . New York Bachs also used totally different valve top caps that had NO felt or neoprene. Instead, the felt was under the valve buttons (also ala early F. Bessons and original Benge trumpets).

The link posted above showing a REAL New York Back is a great one, showing the more compact (vertically) tuning slide, the two hexagonal third valve stop posts, the large hexagonal receiver end . . . and the correct valve cluster with the all metal top valve caps. People who have NOT seen a "New York" need to visually memorize the differences.

The photo quality is too poor to see if the first valve actually pulls out only at it's curved end part with long, attached upper/lower female tubes that don't allow a top attached 1st valve hook like the modern Bachs.

I'll bet that "puppy" is a plain vanilla 37 Elkhart horn, "rode hard and put up wet," that he "forgot" to list all SIX serial numbers!

Tom

PS: If you check out the 1930 Bach on the link above and can "save" the photo on your computer and then open it and zoom in . . .

Zoom and look at the ferrules connecting the upper and lower valve slide tubes. BACK THEN THEY WERE ALSO HEXAGONAL.

Notice the NY Bachs had HEXAGONAL slide pull buttons instead of today's cheaper round ones.

Notice the finer, more expensive to produce joint fittings on the valve slides where the straight tubes are fitted to the curved parts.

The detail and workmanship was so great back then!

Vincent only made 5,500 trumpets before selling out in '61. Check out one he PERSONALLY made!

[ This Message was edited by: tom turner on 2004-01-06 00:12 ]

TimBrown · Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 9:24 pm Post subject:

Then my tpt teacher decades ago must've had a mt vernon. It was virtually the same as my '69 ELkhart (edit -- changed from mt vernon)

Yeah, you are right. That leadpipe isn't from any bach that I"m familiar with.

Tim

[ This Message was edited by: TimBrown on 2004-01-06 00:39 ]

jophst · Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 9:34 pm Post subject:

I'm not going to even try and argue with Tom Turner and I suggest that noone else try either. He knows his stuff and he knows it well. I read his incredibly informative posts often on Strads and learn something new virtually every day about them (this day included).

I agree that it is likely not a Bach New York Body. He needs to show better pictures of this horn. If nothing else, the bell may be worth something right?

Also, my earlier post was probably way out of line. My deepest symphathies to the family of Al Youngman for their loss.
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jophst · Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 9:42 pm Post subject:

Tom ... where do you suppose he got the "V. Bach New York U.S.A" on the 2nd valve from though? Cause check this out ...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2370268864&indexURL=5&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting

Nice horn by the way if its original ... maybe the guy is telling the truth about the valve section. Could it be that big of a Frankenstein horn? Did he install a more modern pinky ring when he put the newer bell on? Valve buttons are different? What is this thing?

My vote has been amended to that the horn is might be an early elkhart between serials 35000-55000 with a broken stop rod.

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[ This Message was edited by: jophst on 2004-01-06 00:44 ]

[ This Message was edited by: jophst on 2004-01-06 01:10 ]

tom turner · Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 10:11 pm Post subject:

Hi,

The horn definately has both the wrong bell, the wrong leadpipe and the wrong pinky hook.

The rest of the resolution is too poor to tell even on my photo editing program.

If it has the V. Bach New York information on the left side of the second valve (where it would be inside a "square") then I wonder why they put totally new (at one time) top valve caps and buttons. Did they also change out the valves.

It appears that horn may truly be a frankenstein . . . only valuable to a NY Bach collector for parts . . . or for someone who already owns a cherry NY Bach bell and leadpipe.

Back in 1930 one of Bach's prime parts supplier was his close friend Emile Blessing (of Blessing Trumpet fame). Like Roy Lawler today with Getzen valve bodies, Vincent Bach chose not to "reinvent the wheel" so he bought the best valve block assembly on the market at the time . . . Blessing's valve block. Bachs used 'em for years and years. These blocks utilized the solid valve top caps with the felt under the valve buttons. The valve itself was also different.

Lots of the small parts were also outsourced for years from Blessing . . . thus all the HEXAGONAL little parts on the Bach.

Early Blessing trumpets were also noted for their HEXAGONAL parts . . . including some VALVE BODIES!!!

Gee . . . and many thought Getzen and/or Schilke first utilized the ol' HEXAGON!

Just thought I'd through out a few more vintage Bach tidbits for all you Bach-a-holics out in cyberspace!

Gosh, I'd better go to bed. LOOOONG out of town rehearsal tonight . . . followed by too much time on this site. I'm gonna be sleepy tomorrow!

[ This Message was edited by: tom turner on 2004-01-06 01:12 ]

TimBrown · Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 7:03 am Post subject:

Just got a reply back from the seller about the horn. I think it's just a matter of they don't know what they have. The seller simply said what was on the valve casing and bell. I had asked if this was a NY and what it said on the bell.

For what it's worth.

Tim

_dcstep · Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 7:29 am Post subject:

Lots of great players have modified their Bachs over the years. This may be the best playing horn you've ever held, with a custom leadpipe and well matched bell. It seems clearly advertised in that regard. The seller is allowing the pictures to "talk." Still, if the guy would polish the horn so we could see patches and really deep wear (likely in a pro-used horn over a long career).

The only thing that worries me is "I don't do that" comment about not polishing the horn. That kind of language signals problems that the seller may be trying to avoid by issuing a "disclaimer". A friend recently purchased a horn with a valve STUCK. The seller said something like "it may need a little oil, BUT I DON'T KNOW ABOUT SUCH THINGs." When it turned out that the valve needed serious honing, the seller had a "defendable" position. I worry about any "weasel words" particularly when it involves something so easy as oiling valves or polishing silver.

BTW, my friend honed the valve and removed a brush from the bell-crook and sold the offending horn for a profit!!

Dave
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DavesTrumpet · Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 8:12 am Post subject:

Unfortunately the photos on this eBay horn are not clear enough to make too many conclusions, but it appears the ferrules on the #1 and 3 slides are original.

By the mid 1930's, the top valve caps were changed over to the design we are all familiar with. Aluminum stems were also in use at this time (and the original stems have the serial number stamped into them).

As a point of reference, here is a picture of an all-original Bach Strad from 1936, same vintage as the eBay horn:

http://www.electrotheremin.com/1936Bach.jpg

This Strad (above) has never been refinished (it's in its original gold lacquer finish) nor repaired. I should point out that the #1 finger hook was more an experiment of the time, not a standard feature. Unfortunately, you can't really extend it out far.

I notice the dealer has neglected to include any updated info in his ad. I've also not received a reply from him.

Guess we'll see what happens.

Dave M

jophst · Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 9:56 am Post subject:

I had gotten an email from the seller last night .. he basically said he would look into it and to "Bid in the meantime".

Sure!! Why not?
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