Selmer Paris Bb Trumpet

[Blues in Bb]

I have a Selmer Paris Bb Trumpet stamped 24B on the leadpipe (ML bore), which had been in storage for five years and I hadn't played consistently since I was in concert band in college for a semester as a freshman. That was nearly 50 years ago.

I was in San Francisco for two weeks in July and since my son is a professional musician there (drums), I spent several months working on my embouchure and attempting to get back to where I could play in public without embarassing myself too badly. I played two jam sessions where he is the house drummer and it went fairly well, so it's never too late.

Now that I've discovered TH and have a renewed interest in trumpet, I was hoping that some of you might have some information about my horn. The serial number is 19167, which I believe puts the born on date somewhere in the mid-fifties, although I was hoping for help in pinning down a precise year of manufacture. I understand that the K-Modifieds were introduced in the early '50s, but there is no identifying engraving to that effect on the leadpipe. Further, there is no first valve slide trigger, but apparently my trumpet teacher with whom I traded this horn for a second hand large bore Bach Strad had it surgically altered in favor of what is a soldered on thumb saddle. So, I am trying to determine if this in effect a K-Modified horn. Any insights would be greatly appreciated.

As a side note, I recently started using Hetman 3 valve oil, as it is recommended for vintage horns. The valve action is fantastic and surprisingly the horn appears to blow much more freely. Placebo effect? Regardless, this 50-60 year old trumpet is playing great.
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Selmer Paris 24B 19167

[MichaelMcCrary]

Started playing the trumpet in ’05 after a 40 year layoff and picked up a K-mod from the early 60’s and Radial from ’72 . I play them in community band and big band. According to Selmer Paris Central (http://rouses.net/trumpet/selmer.htm) the 25B is a large bore (.472). This site only goes back to 1960 for serial numbers. I also use Hetman Classic for both horns and it works very well. The Radial has faster valves – faster than my fingers
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michael
Selmer Radial
Selmer K-Modified - Trumpet and Cornet
Selmer Paris Flugelhorn
Martin Handcrafted Dansant

and a few more

[kehaulani]

[yourbrass]

" I understand that the K-Modifieds were introduced in the early '50s, but there is no identifying engraving to that effect on the leadpipe. Further, there is no first valve slide trigger, but apparently my trumpet teacher with whom I traded this horn for a second hand large bore Bach Strad had it surgically altered in favor of what is a soldered on thumb saddle."

Selmer made the 24B before the K-Mod, which is also a 24B. The early 24B's I've seen had no trigger on the first slide. I don't know what the difference between the two models is, but they are more similar than not.

-Lionel
_________________
"Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/

[ChopsGone]

I believe the key difference between K-modifieds and other Selmers of the same time period is that the K-modified's receiver accepted a USA standard (e.g., Bach) mouthpiece shank, while regular French-made Selmers required a Selmer mouthpiece. As noted, the 24B is simply an indication of the bore size. The only non-K Selmers I own are a couple of Radials, and I've never had a problem with mouthpiece fit, but that's probably not the case with earlier Selmers. Certainly, my K-modifieds all work happily with US-made mouthpieces.

If you want more information, try here:
http://rouses.net/trumpet/selmer.htm
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Vintage Olds & Reynolds & Selmers galore
Aubertins, Bessons, Calicchios, Courtois, Wild Things, Marcinkiewicz, Ogilbee Thumpet, DeNicola Puje, Kanstuls....

[delano]

http://musictrader.com/?page_id=465

Some infoI collected from several sources FWIW:

In the lack of generally known model numbers, Selmer trumpets from this era are generically referred to as "Grand Prix" trumpets (despite the fact that the same bell engraving appears on other Selmer trumpets of known model).

Grands Prix trumpets were Selmer's venerable top-of-the-line flagship, and were available in two basic models...the 20B and 24B. There were other aberrant examples such as the 23B and 25B models, but they had very limited production. It is at this juncture that I would like to correct the incredible amount of misinformation that exists on various "forums" about these two models. The 20B has a .456" bore while the 24B has a .458" bore. I have read copious threads proclaiming that the 24B is the model to own...not IMHO! The 20B was the artist model as evidenced by the "Qualite Artisitique" (Artist Quality) located at the top of the bell engraving...the 24B was the "standard" model. Furthermore, what manufacturer would build two identical trumpets with two thousandths difference in bore size?...none. The 20B Artist Model has heavier walled slide tubing thus reducing the inside diameter by .002". This changes the resonance of the horn and provides a more dense and centered core. The 20B also sports a slightly heavier bell that likewise adds to the purer sound of the 20B, thus making it the choice of most professionals. The 20B is truly an all purpose trumpet capable of producing superb results playing any music style in any acoustic venue. It has the ability to cut through a section, but balances well with the other horns. Its tone is lush, dense, rich, centered, focused, and somewhat warm as one would expect from a top-of-the-line Paris trumpet built from high quality French brass. When pushed, it can become quite bright with a sophisticated edge and complex overtones. The 20B is a medium weight (2 lb. – 5.9 oz.) free and open blowing, medium bore trumpet that is easy to play and fill, absolutely loves to be piloted in the stratosphere, and exhibits awesome flexibility and responsiveness. The horn has superb intonation and laser slots.

Another issue regarding misinformation pertains to the mouthpiece receiver stampings. This trumpet has the following marks, and are interpreted as follows:
BB = Bb pitch
MB = Medium bore leadpipe...you had a choice of a medium or large bore lead pipe with the Artist Model.
LP = Low pitch
20 = Medium .456" bore

Lastly, these pre-K-Modified Grands Prix trumpets have a european (french) tapered mpc. receiver. I am including a 15B Schilke mouthpiece as they have slightly narrower taper to their shanks.

And some more info:

There should be some alpha-numeric codes on the mouthpiece receiver. Older Selmers had lots of codes, including "LP" (low pitch), "BB" (B flat), and I've seen "LB" (large bore). Those codes all dwindled away over the years, but the one code that continued on was the leadpipe/configuration code. It should be something like "19A" or "24B." A trailing "A" indicated that the trumpet was a balanced model, like the trumpets played by Louis Armstrong and Harry James. A trailing "B" indicated a standard layout, with the valves closer to your chops.

You can generally deduce the bore by the leadpipe number. By 1956 this was Selmer's practice:

19 - medium-small: .450"
20 - medium: .456"
24 - medium-large: .458"
25 - large: .468"

I have seen Selmer trumpets with leadpipe codes of 21 and 23, but couldn't attempt any bore measurements. I've also heard of one Selmer with a lower leadpipe number, but a large bore.

[BillyM]

My 1960 Selmer K-Modified is marked 24B with an X below. Any ideas on the meaning of the X?

[yourbrass]

[yourbrass]

[quote="delano"]http://musictrader.com/?page_id=465

Some infoI collected from several sources FWIW:

In the lack of generally known model numbers, Selmer trumpets from this era are generically referred to as "Grand Prix" trumpets (despite the fact that the same bell engraving appears on other Selmer trumpets of known model).

Grands Prix trumpets were Selmer's venerable top-of-the-line flagship, and were available in two basic models...the 20B and 24B. There were other aberrant examples such as the 23B and 25B models, but they had very limited production. It is at this juncture that I would like to correct the incredible amount of misinformation that exists on various "forums" about these two models. The 20B has a .456" bore while the 24B has a .458" bore. I have read copious threads proclaiming that the 24B is the model to own...not IMHO! The 20B was the artist model as evidenced by the "Qualite Artisitique" (Artist Quality) located at the top of the bell engraving...the 24B was the "standard" model. Furthermore, what manufacturer would build two identical trumpets with two thousandths difference in bore size?...none. The 20B Artist Model has heavier walled slide tubing thus reducing the inside diameter by .002". This changes the resonance of the horn and provides a more dense and centered core. The 20B also sports a slightly heavier bell that likewise adds to the purer sound of the 20B, thus making it the choice of most professionals. The 20B is truly an all purpose trumpet capable of producing superb results playing any music style in any acoustic venue. It has the ability to cut through a section, but balances well with the other horns. Its tone is lush, dense, rich, centered, focused, and somewhat warm as one would expect from a top-of-the-line Paris trumpet built from high quality French brass. When pushed, it can become quite bright with a sophisticated edge and complex overtones. The 20B is a medium weight (2 lb. – 5.9 oz.) free and open blowing, medium bore trumpet that is easy to play and fill, absolutely loves to be piloted in the stratosphere, and exhibits awesome flexibility and responsiveness. The horn has superb intonation and laser slots.
]

I've never seen a 20B, I'll look for it, hope I live long enough.
_________________
"Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/

[FrankM]

http://s792.photobucket.com/user/scipio2/media/_DSC0001.jpg.html?sort=3&o=25

Here is a pic of my 23A. It has a bore of 0.456 inches, & weighs 2lb.3oz. The receiver is tight giving a gap around 10mm with modern mouthpiece shanks. Thought I'd post this to add to the great informative post by Delano.

Cheers, Frank
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Fairly large collection. Favourites:-
Eclipse Bb Tpt
Yamaha 6335H Bb Tpt
Besson Meha Bb Tpt
Selmer 99 Radial
Conn Connstelation 36B
Conn Connstelation 28A
B&H Sovereign Cornet
Yamaha 635T Flugel Horn.

[fabiopereirabr]

Hello to all
I'm the proud owner of a grands prix 20B! Mine was made about 1939 and is in very nice shape.. I agree with Delano about the quality of this horn... the sound is very clean and dense, projection is incredible and as an amateur player I think I don't need another Bb to the rest of my life
let me put some pics of my baby:
[img]http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/Fabio_Boto/media/Selmer/MPR_zpspgcdpqjw.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0[/img]

[img]http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/Fabio_Boto/media/Selmer/IMG_0009_zpsc695f63e.jpg.html?sort=3&o=26[/img]

[img]http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/Fabio_Boto/media/Selmer/Selmer7_zps9ec720df.jpg.html?sort=3&o=4[/img]

[img]http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/Fabio_Boto/media/Selmer/IMG_0013_zpsb87f15a8.jpg.html?sort=3&o=22[/img]

Selmer Catalogue from 1938:c
[img]http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/Fabio_Boto/media/Selmer/SELMER_CATALOGUE_TR_38_2_zpscddclhgx.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2[/img]

[img]http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/Fabio_Boto/media/Selmer/SELMER_CATALOGUE_TR_38_zpsj5ot1gk6.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1[/img]

And I just received this week an original mouthpiece x-13 from the same period.. and it seems to play even better with a normal gap.. but the rim is hurting my lips.. maybe a custom mouthpiece with a special shank may be the best option for them...

best regards.[/img]
_________________
Fabio

[fabiopereirabr]

damn pic technology

_________________
Fabio

[yourbrass]

[ChopsGone]

Interesting. Since I've never had a Selmer trumpet made prior to the K-modifieds and Radials, I'm just repeating what I've read on TM and TH as well as countless ads (probably basing their text on the same posts we've all read). I'm not sure just what the truth might be, or what other changes were made to create the K-modified (Selmer's catalog text doesn't get very specific). Whatever they did to make the K-modified, it's still a great horn especially considering its age.
_________________
Vintage Olds & Reynolds & Selmers galore
Aubertins, Bessons, Calicchios, Courtois, Wild Things, Marcinkiewicz, Ogilbee Thumpet, DeNicola Puje, Kanstuls....

[GordonH]

My 19A gives a gap of about 10mm with a conventional mouthpiece. The Schilke gets it down to about 8mm, but this is really no gap as the end of the shank is so thin. The smallest Reeves sleeve would only get me down to about 6mm gap.

The solutions to this include:

Have an existing mouthpiece turned down - if there was sufficient wall thickness in the backbore.

Have a Warburton threaded backbore made to fit - Frost Custom Brass make one. Then you can use a top of your choice.

Getting a vintage French mouthpiece and either using it or have it cut down and threaded as a backbore for warburton tops.

Have the receiver changed? Might be difficult given the way the bracing works.

Just live with it!
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Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.

Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM

[tonino]

MON! I have a Selmer 19A recently restored by Mueller Lack in Germany.
I measured the gap with the Warburton tool and I have the same gap issues with most of the modern mouthpieces. Thanks to Matt Frost who threaded a backbore that fits the receiver I was able to reduce the gap close to zero as per my request. I immediately noticed a terrific improvement of the intonation. I told Matt to keep the parameters of this backbore in order to have another clone built if I liked enough this one. If you want a zero gap backbore for your pre-K Selmer Matt is definitely the go to guy!
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Selmer 19A
Scodwell Balanced Harry James model
Legends MF HG + many ACB mouthpieces

[AlanC]

I have a 25X K mod which is probably a bit big for me but I enjoy playing it anyway.
Now, there are new horns that are cloned, copied, developed or referenced from such classic vintage horns as Benge 3X, Martin Committe, the Connstellation and the Strad but is there anything being made now that is like the old Selmers?

[yourbrass]

[GordonH]

One theory is that if your gap is that big it actually stops behaving like a gap. Going from 10mm to 7mm may be detrimental as it will start to feel like a gap.

One of the distinguishing features of the Selmer trumpets of this period is the "kranz", that piece of thicker material next to the bell rim. Quite unusual on a piston valve instrument. I have only seen it on the Olds Super cornets. This changes the sound.

Strange to think that there are no more French trumpets. No Selmer, Courtois or Couesnon. And Besson went a long time ago.
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Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.

Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM

[fabiopereirabr]