silver vs lacquer finish - one brighter or darker?

[kehaulani]

I know, I know. Probably asked and debated but I'd just like to know if all other things being constant, (same make, model) if one finish is darker or brighter.

A very good player told me that many prefer the sound of the lacquered but opt for the silver because the finish are longer lasting. Sax players I know, generally say that silver is darker (contradicting the visual). Any thoughts? Thanks.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[giakara]

To my ears silver sounds brighter against laquer .

Regards
_________________
Lawler TL5-1A Bb 2015
Lawler TL6-1A Bb 2004
Lawler TL5-1A Bb 2003
Getzen eterna 910 C
Getzen eterna 850 cornet
Selmer Paris 3 valve picc
Yamaha 731 flugel
Carol mini pocket
Reeves/Purviance mpcs

[shofarguy]

Whenever I have had the chance to compare like model Wild Thing horns, the silver ones seem to have an ever so slightly more consolidated core from behind the bell. Kanstul's clear polyester/acrylic finish gives the tiniest sense of brittleness to the timber, a kind of white noise. No listener can tell the difference.

Compared to my raw horn, my silver flugelhorn is once again a little heavier sounding, the raw a little lighter, but the bell material and rim diameter are both changed, also, so it's a bit of a crap shoot there as to why. Raw vs. clear on the flugelhorn doesn't seem to sound much different, but my raw horn just plays better than the others. Since it's the only raw copper flugelhorn, no one can tell if the finish is what makes the difference, but I ain't changin' it!
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[zaferis]

..really tough to tell - because you are or would be comparing oe instrument vs. another thus the finish would not be the only variation. If you take a specific instrument, lets say a raw brass trumpet and have it silver plated, the difference in sound/playability would be very small and with the time inbetween the last time you play it and after it's refinished would make it impossible to accurately compare.
I had a Blackburn built for me, tested it and picked options while it was raw brass, then the final step was to silver plate it - did I notice a difference in sound/playability... nope.

The only comment that I've heard that might have some bearing in plating vs. lacquer is that, "lacquer is essentially a paint that lays on the brass where silver is an extremely thin layer of silver that bonds at a molecular level" - thus vibrating more sympathetically with the brass.

I've had a couple trumpets stripped of lacquer.. did I notice a difference?? I think I did. It seemed to warm up the sound and allow the instrument to vibrate more - but that's what I expected to happen so, did it really help or was it just because I thought it helped.
_________________
Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman

[bwoodard]

I never understand the question. No two horns play or sound the same, even in the same plating. If you play a lemon Bach Strad in silver and it doesn't sound like a lacquer gem Bach Strad is it really the plating or lack thereof or the build quality?

Impossible to quantify!
_________________
Veteran comebacker!
Bob

2015 Harrelson Summit 4/10
2014 Getzen 4895 Flugelhorn
2014 Getzen 3850
2010 Callet Sima Bb
2010 Callet Sima C
73 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
48 Conn 80A Victor Cornet

[John Mohan]

Bare brass, silver plating and gold plating all sound brighter than lacquer. Now with the modern, thinner painted lacquers (lacquer is paint), the difference might not be as much as it was when Schilke did his testing, but it is still there to some extent.

http://www.dallasmusic.org/schilke/Brass%20Clinic.html#Finishes

[qcm]

[kehaulani]

[dstdenis]

If you haven't seen this yet, here's a youtube video that explains the effect of finish on sound characteristics:

https://youtu.be/Da71wAwb_8Y?t=426
_________________
Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi

[John Mohan]

[George Coble]

Silver vs. Lacquer finish- One brighter or darker?

This query shows up in the TH forum on a semi-regular basis. Other than the trumpet’s finish there are several additional conditions that need to be addressed: the trumpet’s relative weight, the specific bell’s weight as well as it’s proprietary metal composition, and what are the acoustical properties you will have to deal with during performing.

Here’s what usually happens: people play test trumpets in a small, studio-type acoustical situation and under these circumstances a standard weight trumpet with lacquer generally sounds the best (darker) to the average ear (“darker” meaning it sounds pleasant to the ear but not necessarily a preponderance of lower frequencies). Under the same circumstances a standard weight trumpet with a plated finish (either silver or gold) or raw brass finish sounds much brighter (meaning there is likely a “sizzle” to the sound but not necessarily a preponderance of higher frequencies).

Concert hall acoustics are something else. First, sitting behind a trumpet while play-testing is probably not the best way to determine how a trumpet sounds “out there”. I was most fortunate because for the vast majority of years I played with the Syracuse Symphony all the symphony programs were taped for the local PBS radio station for re-broadcast and if I had any questions about how one or another horn sounded at a particular performance all I had to do was show up on Sundays following the concert weekend while the editing was going on and I could hear each and every night’s performance and accurately judge how my equipment was blending with the orchestra and what happened to the sound when playing extremes in dynamics.

The most favorable sound (on the Onondaga County Civic Center stage) I found was on a large bore V Bach standard weight C trumpet that had a 229 bell, a #6 lead pipe, with a plated finish (or raw brass). This combination had the best balance of highs and lows in the sound, allowed the easiest efforts for playing loud and soft, and was the friendliest for balancing timbres with the rest of the orchestra. Using a 25H pipe allowed me to more flexibility with forte dynamics but this pipe was more difficult to color than the #6. The #239 bell model V Bach C trumpets sounded “unbalanced” in playback and this was magnified in the reverberant Civic Center acoustics which made the trumpet sound as if it were marching around biblical Jericho. Lacquer C trumpets tended to sound “fluffy” during the playback and the heavyweight model trumpets sounded dull. However, I remember one weekend I used a most interesting trumpet. It was a V Bach standard weight C trumpet with a gold brass #238 Vindabona bell with a #43 pipe in lacquer. From behind the horn it sounded glorious and I expected this to sound dark and broad like a rotary trumpet. At the Sunday radio station play back I was astonished as to what this trumpet was capable of. With little to no effort this horn totally buried the band especially in tutti brass passages with a sound that would peel paint off concrete walls. As I earlier mentioned, it was used on only one weekend.

The lesson to be learned from this is to play-test your new trumpets with suitable recording devices or ask someone whose ears you trust to adjudicate and do this in a space as close to the acoustics you will be performing in.

Good luck-

George Coble

[kehaulani]

Wow! This thread has turned out to be much more fascinating than I would have expected. Thanks, all.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[Bill Blackwell]

The fact is, no two 'identical' horns play exactly the same. There is always some, however subtle, difference.

Having said that, you could compare two otherwise identical horns (one silver and one lacquer), but there's no telling what it is about the horn you like between them that makes it 'better'.

It could be the finish, but then it might not.
_________________
Bill Blackwell
Founder - Sons of Thunder Big Band Machine

Wild Thing Bb - Copper
Wild Thing Flugelhorn - Copper
Wild Thing Short-Model Cornet - Copper

The future ain't what it used to be. ...
- Yogi Berra

[mcgovnor]

The sound in front of the horn, is one thing. The player responds more to the feel, meaning the response, than the sound. He hears the sound a certain way because the horn responds differently. The exception is Gold Plate.
Gold plate is usually the darkest of all sounds and is the heaviest of all, with the slowest response. The reason is because gold does not stick to brass, so a horn must be silver plated before it is gold plated.
Gold on a Benge or a Schilke L can add some density and security to the over-all feel and sound impression.
Gold on an old Martin Committee or a Conn Constellation is a death nail. These horns are already heavy and dense.
My least favorite is silver. Many love it. For me, it's a thin edge and drives me nuts. Raw Brass is my fav...but it can be "fuffy" on certain horns.
Lacquer is my second fav..
My two fav horns were both light gold plated horns; a Schilke B6L, and an old Benge mlp, gold plated from the factory. It was a great instrument.
The brightest recorded horn ever for me was a Benge 5x, lacquer. Killer.

[Don Herman rev2]

I think differences are more in the mind than the horn given the relative amount of plating but this is another of those debates that never convinces anybody.

One correction: gold can be plated onto brass but usually is not because brass is soft, as is gold, and silver provides a harder (more protective) finish under the gold so the finish (and horn) last longer.

In the past lacquer was less durable than today's lacquer/epoxy blends and was applied much thicker. It is much thinner today but still usually thicker than a metal plated finish.
_________________
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley

[mcgovnor]

When we consider players placing tape on various places of the horn and perceiving a difference in responce and tone, than the idea that additional metal added to critical places of an instrument will alter the response and possibly the sound. is not too far fetched..

[bwoodard]

[pfeifela]

The test referenced by Schilke, while interesting and perhaps absolutely correct just doesn't carry much value, at least not in a scientific sense because the number tested is too small and variables too high. It would be VERY interesting to have a 100 professional players (blinded) test several dozens identical horns (to the degree any two horns can be identical.) Then we might actually be able to prove something. Meanwhile we're hovering just above the level of opinion.
_________________
Larry Pfeifer

[shofarguy]

[mcgovnor]

We are talking about the perception of a player and how it is changed by silver, lacquer, gold or raw brass. How it is changed will effect how the musician plays. Whether the sound difference is discernible to a listener or a machine is of absolutely no consequence and has no bearing on the person behind the horn.
Performance is effected by variables often indiscernible to most. Especially on brass instruments.
Playing on gold on a Bach trumpet while recording with 2 horns in a small room was really something I enjoyed.
Playing on gold on a Bach trumpet recording with a 6 horn section in a huge studio, was a nightmare.
Silver, for me always had a great edge but lacked the lower partials in the sound.
Lacquer and raw bass seemed to be more pliable. For me it also was easier change the sound as well as adapt to temperature changes and other variables.