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krax Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Apr 2007 Posts: 689 Location: Hofors, Sweden
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Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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Mr.Hollywood wrote: | Louie played the Selmer 19A and he always favored a double cup mp. It was also a VERY wide ID.
Don Goldie who was very close to Louie swears that Louie also played a trumpet called an "OHM" in the 1960's. He said that it looked exactly like a balanced selmer.
Does anybody know anything about an "OHM" trumpet?
Chris LaBarbera |
You sure it wasn't EMO?
EMO trumpets were advertized as played by Louis Armstrong on an australian tour.
Those were copies of the balanced Selmer, although not exact copies.
Last edited by krax on Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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krax Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Apr 2007 Posts: 689 Location: Hofors, Sweden
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Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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GordonH wrote: | The person to ask would be John Chilton. When he wrote his biography of Louis he met up with him and had alook through his trumpet case. He was just playing on the standard selmer mouthpiece that came with the trumpet (at that time at least). |
On a CD cover I have he also has a standard Selmer mouthpiece, that is a Selmer Special. These were also double cups, I have a few. |
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GordonH Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2002 Posts: 2895 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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King George VI gave him a gold plated selmer as a gift once. _________________ Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.
Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM |
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d5968 Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Aug 2004 Posts: 293 Location: OKLAHOMA
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Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:30 am Post subject: |
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all of you Satchmo fans need a copy of Gene Andersons's book on "The Original Hot Five Recordings of Louis Armstrong". This is an extrememly detailed accout of the musical group during the 1921-1930 period of his career. original leadsheets, original CD of the hot five recordings. an absolute masterpiece. Gene is a professor at the University of Richmond. in Virginia. I really don't know where you can order it from, Dr Anderson gaver me a copy. It is printed by the Pendragon Press, Hillsdale, New york. It is a must have for any trumpet player or fan of Satchm.o _________________ Courtois Flugel
'36 NY bach 26-62
Destino-USA #2
Flip Oakes Cornet (Wild Thing)
Calicchio1S/9L |
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Mr.Hollywood Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730
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Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:36 am Post subject: |
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Hey Krax,
I think you've just cleared up a 20 year old mystery for me.
Don Goldie fatally shot himself close to 20 years ago so I never had the chance to talk to him about it again.
All these years I thought he said "OHM" but it must have been "EMO"
http://www.trumpetmaster.com/vb/f140/emo-world-trumpet-ever-heard-34941.html
Thanks again.
Chris LaBarbera |
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wvtrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Sep 2004 Posts: 3131 Location: West Virginia
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Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 8:37 am Post subject: |
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Guys,
Just wanted to say what a cool thread this is. I sometimes get upset with some of the threads on here where we bash or cut on others. This is just a great source of info and I enjoyed learning from everyone here. _________________ Freelance Performer/Teacher WV, PA, MD, and OH http://www.neil-king.com
Yamaha NY Bb, Adams F1 Flugelhorn, Schilke P5-4, Stomvi Eb/D Elite, Bach C 229 bell 25A, York Monarch cornet. |
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cleanhead77@embarqmail Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Sep 2007 Posts: 320 Location: Central Florida
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Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 8:38 am Post subject: |
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About 1973 or so, I was in Giardinelli's in New York where I used to like to go and try out stuff ( sometimes buy - they had Al Cass mouthpieces for about 10 bucks.) and meet a lot of other cats who hung out there. On this occasion Ralph asked me if I wanted to see Louis' horns which Lucille had left for a while for safe keeping. One was a Gold plated med small bore French Selmer balanced model with a lot of wear on it. Another was a more recent K modified one which showed use but not as much. A third was a bejeweled fancy thing which showed no use all. I don't recall the make, but Bob and Ralph told me it was a gift to Louis from, as I recall, the King of Thailand, who was a big jazz fan and played a little sax himself. They asked me if I wanted to blow them but I decided against such a sacrilege.
Regarding mouthpieces, in his later years Louis played a custom Giardinelli, but as a joke he always kept a large, deep piece in his case. When people asked him, too frequently, what kind of mouthpiece he used to get that powerful high register, he used to show them the big one as a put on.
On page 193 of Chilton's book on Louis, there is a letter from Joe Glaser, his manager, mentioning Louis played a Selmer trumpet serial number1436 made in 1932. _________________ So many trumpets and mouthpieces, so little time. |
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excelsiorcornetband Regular Member
Joined: 15 Mar 2005 Posts: 53 Location: Syracuse, NY
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Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:31 pm Post subject: Armstrong's horns |
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The Armstrong trumpet I saw at the Kansas City jazz museum several years ago was a "K-Modified" Balanced Model.
Also, in an article in the Historic Brass Society Journal, Vol. 15, 2003, Jeff Nussbaum, Niles Eldridge, and Robb Stewart conclusively showed that the Marceau (a Sears Roebuck tradename) cornet purported by George Finola to have been the instrument Armstrong learned to play on at age 12 (and which was bought by the Smithsonian for $108,000 in October 2001) could not have been Armstrong's "first cornet" or anything like it. While Armstrong did learn the bugle and cornet at the Colored Waifs' Home (the instruments he probably used are in the Louisiana State Museum), Armstrong left the Colored Waifs' Home on June 16th 1914, before this model ever appeared in the Sear Roebuck catalog. It first appeared in Sears Catalog #131, Fall 1915. Furthermore, in my own personal conversations with Sotheby's staff prior to the sale of this instrument, they confirmed that the instrument was also marked "Czechoslovakia" on the mouthpipe--a country that did not exist before 1918. Czechoslovakia was created as a clause of the Treaty of Versailles, which ended World War One and was ratified on 28 June 1919. Thus, any instrument marked "Czechoslovakia" could not have been made prior to 1919; Armstrong could not have played this horn while at the Colored Waifs' Home or any time soon thereafter. By 1919, his professional career was well underway, so it seems highly unlikely he ever played the cheap Marceau cornet purchased by the Smithsonian. I voiced my concerns to Sotheby's at the time, but they did not seem interested in any information that called into question the authenticity of this cornet (and thus the whopping buyers premium they realized from the sale...) One does have to hand it to George Finola for having the chutzpah to get the Smithsonian to pay him over $100,000 for a $50 cornet! It is my understanding that, following the publication of the above-mentioned article in HBS Journal, the Smithsonian discretely removed this instrument from public display to avoid the embarrassment of explaining to the American public why $108,000 of their tax money was spent on a $50 cornet with a bogus provenance. It is still visible on their website, however. |
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cleanhead77@embarqmail Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Sep 2007 Posts: 320 Location: Central Florida
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Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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Well, George Finola, a pretty good cornet player, probably believed he had the real thing at the time. I think he died of Aids some years ago............
People say I should have been a lawyer (perhaps a comment on my playing rather than my propensity for logical argument) but it could be argued that (1) Marceau made instruments for export well before Sears started importing them, and (2) the Czech leadpipe could have been added later as a replacement. Maybe I should charge the Smithsonian for a legal fee? (I am a member.) Then They could display it again.
To illustrate a point, Jimmy MacPartland once showed me a Bach cornet Bix had given him.He had authenticated this with a handwritten statement on the bell to this effect, done with an vibration type engraving tool.He remarked that his nephew had bashed the bell in and he had had it replaced.The only thing wrong is that the replacement bell with the engraving is a Mount Vernon bell. Bix had been dead about 20 years before the first Mount Vernon bell was ever made.Someday, someone is going to claim that cornet is a fraud. _________________ So many trumpets and mouthpieces, so little time. |
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excelsiorcornetband Regular Member
Joined: 15 Mar 2005 Posts: 53 Location: Syracuse, NY
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Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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A buddy of mine who passed away a couple years ago, who knew Jimmy and Marian McPartland, told me that he remembered Jimmy showing him that Bach cornet he'd gotten from Bix, with the writing all over the bell from the vibrating engraver, and that he even got to play it. I hope Jimmy saved the original bell...
With the replacement bell, it would sort of be like the original axe that George Washington used to chop down the cherry tree: Completely original except for the two new heads and 6 new handles it's gotten over the years.
As for the Marceau cornet: There was no maker named "Marceau", it was proprietary trade name made up and used by Sears Roebuck to make their horns sound as if they were made in Paris, even though they were made by some job shop, probably in Grazlitz. They might have been made by Boland & Fuchs; Sears' top-of-the-line "Lamereaux Freres" were definitely made by B&F in spite of the fru-fru French-sounding trade name. There were no truth-in-advertising laws back then. The undeniable fact is, if it says "Marceau", it was made for, stenciled for, imported by and sold by Sears Roebuck only. This particular model, with Sears' Marceau stencil, was not introduced until Fall 1915, and its highly unlikely that Armstrong ran down to Sears Roebuck to buy a brand new one, or that he would have even been allowed to enter the store if he had. And he certainly couldn't have found one in a pawn shop in the 2nd half of 1914 after being released from the Colored Waifs' Home.
Without pulling off all that black electrical tape, it would be difficult to determine if the receiver is not original (I'm sure the S.I. would have nothing of that), although I suspect the tape simply covers up cracks or split seams. All of the Marceau cornets I've seen (lots of them, all suitable for lamps) were marked "Czechoslovakia" on the receiver, denoting post-1918 manufacture. One also has to wonder if World War One put a crimp into Sears' imports from Bohemia and how many, or few, were sold up to the US's entry into the war. It's for sure, though that they sold a boatload of them after the war, because they cost only $9.95 in 1920. One very well-known repairman freind has a mobile made from about 8 Marceaus identical to the "Armstrong" horn. When the Smithsonian bought theirs, he circulated a photo of the mobile, accompanied by the comment "I'm rich!!!" I think its far more likely that this horn has nothing whatsoever to do with Louis Armstrong, than that it WAS played by him and had the receiver replaced at a later date. I really think a gross miscarriage of history, if not an outright fraud, was perpetrated here. After all, the Smithsonian website still touts it as "Louis Armstrong's first cornet," which is demonstrably baloney.
It wouldn't be the first time the S.I. has displayed a "major artifact" that was demonstrably spurious. Look up the story of the Wright Flyer and the Langley Aerodrome, and the politically motivated spat between the Wrights on one side and Glenn Curtiss & the S.I. on the other. It wasn't until shortly after Orville Wright's death in 1948 that the S.I. conceded that the Wrights were the first to build an aircraft that could be flown under its own power under full control carrying a pilot. Until then, because they didn't want to admit that someone else had done it before them, they had ascribed this feat to the former Secretary of the Smithsonian, Samuel Langley. But that's completely off topic.
Thanks for putting up with my long-windedness! |
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cleanhead77@embarqmail Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Sep 2007 Posts: 320 Location: Central Florida
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Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:07 am Post subject: |
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Great information, this is a really interesting post. Is the Smithsonian cornet the same old junky one that was displayed in the New Orleans Jazz Museum? It's an interesting fact that George Finola was at one time curator of that museum. Who got to keep the money from the sale? Finola didn't, to my knowledge, live high off the hog.
By the way, I probably know some of the people who have posted or been mentioned in this post, though I don't recognize their TH monickers, so I'd like to identify myself -
Bill Barnes
Windermere, Florida _________________ So many trumpets and mouthpieces, so little time. |
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d5968 Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Aug 2004 Posts: 293 Location: OKLAHOMA
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Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:26 am Post subject: |
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Glad to meet you Bill, I don't understand all of you Satchmo fans and not one has remarked about my post on Mr. Anderson's book on Louie. _________________ Courtois Flugel
'36 NY bach 26-62
Destino-USA #2
Flip Oakes Cornet (Wild Thing)
Calicchio1S/9L |
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trimblex1 New Member
Joined: 13 Aug 2011 Posts: 1
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Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:56 am Post subject: Marceau Cornet - Louis Armstrong (controversy?) |
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I have a silver plated Marceau shepherd's crook cornet that plays beautifully. It sounds like my King Master with a King MK mouthpiece. This silver horn is perfect, no dings and the plating is 100%. Honestly, it looks about new, but with that "something" only an old horn has. All the slides have good compression and the valves are like butter.
The Marceau came with its original mouthpiece, which is a very deep v cut, with no name.
The receiver has Czecho and Slovakia below it on two lines.
The valve casings are marked 76, 77 and 78 and the center valve has a silver hallmark above the 77 and a lower case "u" below it.
Aside from Marceau engraved on the bell with some filligree, there are no other markings.
Anyone with misconceptions about the quality of Czech horns would be seriously disabused if they saw this beauty.
Any idea of the date, anyone? Or the manufacturer? It is post-Versailles treaty (otherwise it would have said Bavaria, as I assume this horn was made in Graslitz). Timewise that would put the horn at after 1918 until the Marceau brand ceased existence.
I'm asking these questions because this horn is a KEEPER, and I would really like to know all I can about it. Thanks. |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12705 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 9:43 am Post subject: |
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You would probably do better to start a new thread rather than hijack this one. But it is an interesting thread up til now. |
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insaneinsaan New Member
Joined: 03 Oct 2011 Posts: 10 Location: Mumbai, India
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Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:57 pm Post subject: Balanced by Louis Armstrong |
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Hi, when a trumpet is engraved "balanced by louis armstrong", does it mean the actual trumpet has been actually played by him? Or just that the model design was approved by him? I would guess the latter, but just asking. |
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Retlaw Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Nov 2006 Posts: 3263 Location: UK
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Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:32 pm Post subject: Re: Balanced by Louis Armstrong |
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insaneinsaan wrote: | Hi, when a trumpet is engraved "balanced by louis armstrong", does it mean the actual trumpet has been actually played by him? Or just that the model design was approved by him? I would guess the latter, but just asking. |
The latter... otherwise my 1934 Balanced L ARMSTRONG trumpet is worth even more... I have read somewhere that Louis visited the Selmer factory when he spent time in France in the early thirties. Certainly Selmer introduced the Louis Armstrong balanced model in 1933... I would expect that he gave approval for his name to be used on the horns and that he would have had some input into the design... he certainly did play the Selmer trumpets for many years after that....lots of photographic evidence.
Like most trumpet players he probably had flirtations with other makes but it would appear that his true love for many years was the Selmer trumpet of old.
Walter _________________ "Amazing how many people listen with their eyes."
"Life is short....play nice." |
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insaneinsaan New Member
Joined: 03 Oct 2011 Posts: 10 Location: Mumbai, India
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Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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I have a silverplate, serial number 691 Low pitch Bb "MB". Is that medium bore? There are also two silver mouthpieces, a selmer special 4 and a selmer 2c. Any info you can share? I'm not much of a trumpeter though I can play very little. |
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derby_mute Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2006 Posts: 343 Location: France
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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:24 am Post subject: |
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It was mentioned in one of the earlier posts that King Oliver played a Harry B Jay. To my knowledge he never did. Photos of him when Louis was in the band show him holding a Holton Clarke model cornet.
He played trumpet later on in the 1920s (when he recorded for Victor), and I seem to remember someone who knew him stating in an interview that it was a King Silvertone. _________________ Cornets:
Selmer model #43
Selmer Concept
Baldwin Custom (Blessing Artist stencil)
1923 Buescher shepherd's crook
1880 F. Besson Paris
Trumpets:
1931 Cleveland Greyhound
1935 Olds French model |
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Robert Rowe Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2004 Posts: 5364 Location: Chincoteague, Virginia
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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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I don't feel it matters what he played.
To my ears, and through many old 33 1/3-rpm and even 78-rpm disc recordings I've collected, he sounds pretty much the same.
While his playing was extraordinary, his tone is not distinctive TO ME.
~ r2 ~ _________________ ~ Love animals ... don't eat them. ~
I miss Genghis Khan .... |
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excelsiorcornetband Regular Member
Joined: 15 Mar 2005 Posts: 53 Location: Syracuse, NY
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Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:08 am Post subject: |
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Mr.Hollywood wrote: | Louie played the Selmer 19A and he always favored a double cup mp. It was also a VERY wide ID.
Don Goldie who was very close to Louie swears that Louie also played a trumpet called an "OHM" in the 1960's. He said that it looked exactly like a balanced selmer.
Does anybody know anything about an "OHM" trumpet?
Chris LaBarbera |
I believe he was thinking of the EMO (Ernst Mödl) World Color Model that Pops played on an Australian tour at that time. _________________ www.excelsiorcornetband.com
www.jeffstockham.com
Conn 10B Coprion Trumpet
Martin Committee Trumpet
Olds Clark Terry Fluglehorn
Stratton OTS Eb Cornet
Hall & Quinby Side-action Rotary Eb Cornet
NY Bach Apollo G Bugle
And about 200 others... |
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