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BrentD New Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2010 Posts: 9 Location: Michigan
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Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:40 pm Post subject: Can you help identify this horn? |
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So I was thinking about dipping my toes back in the water after many years away and the local winds shop has a friendly rental program. I narrowed my choices down to a Getzen 390 and a Besson (I believe a BE1000). I was going to go with the Getzen, but asked if I could check out the fancier horns just for fun. The owner set me loose with a room full of cases.
I pulled this small case out and he apparently forgot he had the horn I grabbed, so was willing to rent it despite it seeming a step up from a student model.
The horn is a Sterling Concert Model. All I can find online is that it's a British company - its website is being overhauled and has no product information. The horn has some upscale-looking features like faceted valve buttons, a water slide as opposed to key, etc. On top of that the horn appears to be gold plated (the store owner said it was, too). It seems to play very nicely and a teacher in the shop played it for me as well. It sounds very nice.
Mostly I'm just curious; any information about Sterling instruments would be helpful. I have posted a couple of photos. The logo picture is a little blurry but hopefully it gives you an idea of the font (it says "Sterling Concert Model").
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p76 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 1072 Location: The Golden City of OZ
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Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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Other people will chip in I'm sure, but I think a Jinbao stencil horn.
Cheers,
Roger _________________ Bb - Selmer Radial, Yamaha YTR634, Kanstul 1001, Kanstul 700.
C - Yamaha 641.
Cornet - Olds Ambassador A6T, Besson 723, Olds Ambassador Long.
Flugel - Kanstul 1525
Mpc. - ACB 3CS, ACB 3ES, Curry 3BBC, Kanstul FB Flugel |
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TrentAustin Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 Posts: 5485 Location: KC MO
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royjohn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2005 Posts: 2272 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
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Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, there was a Sterling made in the UK by my research, and also a Selmer-Sterling, but those latter had Selmer engraved as well as Sterling. Some say that the UK Sterling was a high intermediate level horn. However, I think they are playing you about the gold plating. I don't know why anyone would gold plate an intermediate horn. It should be pretty easy for a tech to tell you whether it is lacquered or gold plated. The photos look lacquered to me, but photos can be deceptive.
If the rental price is reasonable, you might rent it for a few months. I wouldn't get into a long term contract until I knew more about what I wanted, and still would probably look to purchase something rather than rent long term.
A few months with a rental should tell you whether you want to continue.
Any decent music store should have somebody on staff who can tell a gold plated instrument from a lacquered one, and if they are aware it is probably lacquered and trying to pass it off as gold plate, that leaves a very bad taste in my mouth, no matter how reasonable the rental. _________________ royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . . |
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BrentD New Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2010 Posts: 9 Location: Michigan
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Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you all for the input so far. The rental is very reasonable and if I should change my mind I can turn it in or, if I upgrade to another horn, they apply my payments toward the new instrument.
I sent an email to the UK Sterling company and we'll see if they respond. It's three in the morning there so it'll be a while anyway.
More than one person in the shop said it looked plated, though I don't put it past a salesman with a staff to corroborate each other even if they shouldn't be doing so. I mainly was hoping to avoid a trap horn and the reasonable rental/trade out option may protect me here. I'd be a little ticked if it weren't a high-quality horn, mostly because I feel strongly that the Getzen is even as a student model. |
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royjohn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2005 Posts: 2272 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
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Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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IDK what the rental rates are there, but an Olds Ambassador, a nice beginners horn, is available for $60 to $150. I got one out of a local pawn shop where it had sat for a while (they had two) for $60 a while back. It needs a little de-denting and maybe I'll try a new leadpipe on it or make it into a Frankenhorn with sheet bracing...haven't decided yet.
There are also lots of craigslist King 609's and Bach TR300s and other starter horns. Esp. in the summer before school starts in August/September. Then the prices goes up.
But my point is that these are very nice beginner's horns for cheap and you can get your money back if you decide to chuck it. So I wouldn't be stuck in the rental trap any longer than it took me do decide whether I wanted to play or give up. You should probably be able to decide that in the first month. Good luck! _________________ royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . . |
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BrentD New Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2010 Posts: 9 Location: Michigan
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Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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royjohn wrote: | [] I wouldn't be stuck in the rental trap any longer than it took me do decide whether I wanted to play or give up. You should probably be able to decide that in the first month. Good luck! |
That's the idea! I figure if I schedule a lesson or two and do some daily work I'll figure out whether I want to continue pursuing and, if so, how strongly. |
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p76 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 1072 Location: The Golden City of OZ
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Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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TrentAustin wrote: | Looks like a Weril valve block and serial # engraving to me. |
I will bow to Trent's superior knowledge here - there is a Stirling Brand floating around Australia at the moment that is Chinese, so thought of that, but realise it's different spelling....sneaky....
Cheers,
Roger _________________ Bb - Selmer Radial, Yamaha YTR634, Kanstul 1001, Kanstul 700.
C - Yamaha 641.
Cornet - Olds Ambassador A6T, Besson 723, Olds Ambassador Long.
Flugel - Kanstul 1525
Mpc. - ACB 3CS, ACB 3ES, Curry 3BBC, Kanstul FB Flugel |
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Maarten van Weverwijk Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Jan 2006 Posts: 3377
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Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:16 am Post subject: |
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royjohn wrote: | ...there was a Sterling made in the UK... |
Not sure if this is the same company,
but over the years I've serviced quite a couple of "Sterling" branded euphoniums distributed by John Packer London and I was generally underwhelmed with the quality of the instruments (poor plating, solder joints and valves). Rather expensive too for what was being offered. In this class Jupiter does a far better job for less money.
Again, I'm talking about Euphoniums and your instrument may come from a completely different source; I've never come across a Sterling trumpet. |
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BrentD New Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2010 Posts: 9 Location: Michigan
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Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 11:25 am Post subject: |
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Update: I talked to a place that had this horn (it was purchased by my local shop in a liquidation from a place a few hours away when they switched to only selling tubas and euphonia). They said it was a student horn likely given as a sample piece by the manufacturer, not plated, and is probably 15 years old. They referred me to Paul Riggett as the manufacturer.
It feels like a nice enough horn but I have a bit of a bad taste from the deal. Although I can switch out at no cost, I still feel like I should have taken the Getzen 390 to begin with.
Thanks for all of your input. |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8348 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 11:41 am Post subject: |
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BrentD wrote: | It feels like a nice enough horn but I have a bit of a bad taste from the deal. Although I can switch out at no cost, I still feel like I should have taken the Getzen 390 to begin with. |
The Getzen is a very good student instrument. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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royjohn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2005 Posts: 2272 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
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Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 11:52 am Post subject: |
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Hi Brent,
I forgot to mention in my post that "Concert Model" sounds like a fake or stencil name, not a pro horn designation.
I did note that it was unlikely that the horn was gold plated and that your seller "knew or should have known" that. You were warned, but you're not the first to be tempted by a shiny new horn. If it seems too good to be true, it is.
I would either keep it or switch to the Getzen or whatever if the other plays better. Then I would give it a month to decide what I might like to do. If you decide to stay with it, there are lots of good options for used pro level horns or good starter horns (such as the Ambassador) from $100 to $700.
If I were you, when I took the rental back I would let the folks in the store know that you feel you were lied to and had...and that they have just lost your business from now on. In most towns, there's more than one music store. You might also consider a letter to the BBB.
But let's not lose sight of the fact that you're embarking on an exciting venture, learning to play the trumpet/cornet/flugelhorn/bass trumpet/alto horn. Lots of fun, lots of possibilities. Yea! Go for it! Hope you like it. _________________ royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . . |
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BrentD New Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2010 Posts: 9 Location: Michigan
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Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks. I wasn't warned as I already had the horn by the time I first posted. I asked the guy about it today and we had a chat. I think he really thinks it's plated and since he's cool about switching out I won't be a turd.
Mostly I just wanted to figure out what I had. For the money, I'll probably switch horns if I'm going to stick with it. I'm a comeback guy but I play a few other instruments and there's only so much time in the day. |
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royjohn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2005 Posts: 2272 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
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Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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Reading back over your thread, the wording doesn't make it clear to me that you already got the horn and then asked for advice about it...hence my remark. But glad it is working out and I apologize if I jumped to a conclusion.
As you'll probably learn if you become a horn freak like me, gold plated horns are few and far between and they tend to look very special with other custom touches. I have two. One is pretty obviously a custom horn with a copper bell and leadpipe and silver and gold accents and it's also a C trumpet, which is often a more expensive horn. The other is an antique from 1928 and it is engraved all over the bell, inside and out, all the way back to the bell bow. Obviously a special horn. Also, plate just looks different from lacquer. Lacquer is a coating and you can see that it has some thickness to it. It's a subtle difference, but it's there. A plated horn looks like a front surface mirror.
But the important thing is you'll be able to get the horn you want from the store and then go on to something of your choosing if you decide to continue.
A friend of mine once remarked as we headed into our fifties that we tended to suffer fools less gladly. If I were in your situation and the store knew as little about their merchandise as you describe and actually tread on the border of fraud in describing the horn, I would walk out of there and never go back. There are plenty of places to get trumpets which will not waste my time.
I've taken a number of baths in my life for tens, hundreds and even thousands of dollars. Tomorrow I'll start interviewing people to fix a septic system into which I have already sunk $5K because I trusted the wrong people. Luckily I have a list of at least 50 firms to contact and the one with the most intelligent, no nonsense approach will get the job. I'm going to listen for all of thirty seconds to anyone who doesn't make sense. And I may sue the folks who've taken my money already.
The vast majority of the players and merchants and techs you'll find on here are great people and very professional, so there isn't any need to deal with the local band store that is trying to make a killing off kids, sells at a high list price and has staff that don't know their instruments.
I just wish that I'd known as much about septic systems as trumpets when that whole odyssey started....LOL. I'll get off the soap box and crawl back in my hole now... _________________ royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . . |
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BrentD New Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2010 Posts: 9 Location: Michigan
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Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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No worries! Note: I may have been a bit ambiguous about having already bought it because I didn't want to out any info if I were to immediately return it.
I don't have a lot of experience with horns, so obviously I'm at a disadvantage. The horn has some features of a nicer "pro" horn and some features of a student horn. From my very limited experience, it certainly doesn't look like it's lacquered (mostly because of its very uniform color). But it doesn't make sense that a sub-$1000 horn would get the same treatment as $5k+ horn, and if it were plated then every guy to have had his hands on it would have vouched for it. At least one - my understanding the original retailer - did not.
In any case I knew I'd be out $30 for one month's rental at most, so it was worth the gamble. I'm certainly learning a lot! |
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Dennis78 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2015 Posts: 673 Location: Cincinnati
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Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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I just purchased an early 80's Holton Collegiate for $32. Silver plated and in good shape. Deals are there to be had. Rentals suck! _________________ a few different ones |
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GordonH Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2002 Posts: 2895 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 1:08 am Post subject: |
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Definitely a Weril. I once bought a Weril cornet that had Sterling engraved on it when it came out of the box. No idea what the connection is or why though. _________________ Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.
Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3670 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:03 am Post subject: |
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BrentD wrote: | No worries! Note: I may have been a bit ambiguous about having already bought it because I didn't want to out any info if I were to immediately return it. :wink:
I don't have a lot of experience with horns, so obviously I'm at a disadvantage. The horn has some features of a nicer "pro" horn and some features of a student horn. From my very limited experience, it certainly doesn't look like it's lacquered (mostly because of its very uniform color). But it doesn't make sense that a sub-$1000 horn would get the same treatment as $5k+ horn, and if it were plated then every guy to have had his hands on it would have vouched for it. At least one - my understanding the original retailer - did not.
In any case I knew I'd be out $30 for one month's rental at most, so it was worth the gamble. I'm certainly learning a lot! |
OK, so here's my guess: DEG, right in your backyard in Wisconsin!
They have a Dynasty line of marching instruments, and your trumpet looks very much like one of them. They play well, and you can't kill 'em, even on the field. Ask them if it's one of their stencils, they are very nice people to deal with.
-Lionel _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /James R. New Studio backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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oxleyk Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 4181
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Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 10:09 am Post subject: |
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yourbrass wrote: | BrentD wrote: | No worries! Note: I may have been a bit ambiguous about having already bought it because I didn't want to out any info if I were to immediately return it.
I don't have a lot of experience with horns, so obviously I'm at a disadvantage. The horn has some features of a nicer "pro" horn and some features of a student horn. From my very limited experience, it certainly doesn't look like it's lacquered (mostly because of its very uniform color). But it doesn't make sense that a sub-$1000 horn would get the same treatment as $5k+ horn, and if it were plated then every guy to have had his hands on it would have vouched for it. At least one - my understanding the original retailer - did not.
In any case I knew I'd be out $30 for one month's rental at most, so it was worth the gamble. I'm certainly learning a lot! |
OK, so here's my guess: DEG, right in your backyard in Wisconsin!
They have a Dynasty line of marching instruments, and your trumpet looks very much like one of them. They play well, and you can't kill 'em, even on the field. Ask them if it's one of their stencils, they are very nice people to deal with.
-Lionel |
Dynasty percussion. I don't think DEG has made brass instruments for a number of years.
Kent |
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BrentD New Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2010 Posts: 9 Location: Michigan
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Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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After your help and some image searching, I'm fairly certain it's a Weril Excalibur in gold brass. Don't know if it's an E971 or an E972, but close enough for me.
Thanks! |
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