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Lie601 Regular Member
Joined: 13 Jun 2016 Posts: 12
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 3:39 am Post subject: Starting the note |
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Hi All,
So I have been playing for a few years now, but recently one of my peers told me that I am "swooping" into the note. Let me clarify, she said that I am not starting on the note but rather I am starting somewhere below it and sliding up to the note. How would I fix this!
Thanks! |
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Sarah Veteran Member
Joined: 19 Jul 2016 Posts: 113 Location: Australia
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 3:59 am Post subject: |
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One of the pedagogy books i recently read (can't recall which author though, sorry) talks about 'singing' the note mentally.. setting up the vocal chords etc to the right air speed etc, and then playing.
You sort of have to aim for the middle of the sound, rather than climbing up through the harmonics, if that makes sense. It is hard to do on high notes. A trick that helps me with my woodwinds, is to think about coming from above the note, and sliding down. it is sort of an over correction. and is quite effective. |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2349 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:36 am Post subject: |
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Could be, and probably several physical things going on. Without seeing and hearing you play it will be quite difficult to understand what the issue is physically.
You need to hear that you're doing it so you can fix it; record yourself and listen critically... do you understand the problem? Stop it!
At first blush, I'd GUESS that you're not getting your air stream fully pressurized at the beginning of your note(s) and may be a way of feeling more secure in hitting the note.
Start in an easy register (2nd line "g") practice "hitting" the note dead center. Both with an articulated start (tongue) AND with just an air/breath start. A chromatic tuner may be a good tool - it may show you that you're sliding also will help train your "ear" and chops to play a steady tone. Take the mouthpiece off of your chops momentarily, then repeat, repeat, repeat.
Make it a part of your daily routine - this is not something you'll fix overnight; 5, 10, 15 or more minutes everyday, over time will clean this up.
Then move up and down in your register being observant to your accuracy.
Hear the pitches, sing the tone (don't scoop or slide into them when singing), then play them. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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stanton Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Aug 2007 Posts: 726 Location: Skokie, Illinois
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:55 am Post subject: |
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I think this is one of those things where the conceptual can lead to the mechanical. I believe that from your description, listening and awareness of sound is something you need to work on generally.
Imagine a piano or keyboard. One presses the key and a note comes out. Volume aside, the note rings at a given pitch and does not change. Each note on the trumpet (with the exception of intentional bending) should have the same exact pitch from the beginning to the end, regardless of the volume.
So I believe you need to begin training yourself to create pitches that come out on pitch target and stay there. You'll need to train your ears to hear and discern the subtle differences. And while I am not necessarily an advocate of mouthpiece buzzing, in this case I would make an exception, if only to remove the horn from the equation as it can act as a crutch.
So, with mouthpiece in one hand and your horn in the other, do the following: [Tips- Start with single notes only. When your are 100% successful with single notes move onto simple phrases. Initially do not go beyond your most comfortable range. Do not interpret "close" as being successful. It's a simple exercise in pitch perfection]
1) Hear the pitch. Use a piano or keyboard (or computer) to generate a pitch. Hear it as precisely as you can.
2) SING the pitch. Sing it as accurately as you can. Try to be precisely in tune.
3) Buzz the pitch on your mouthpiece. Attempt to get the pitch to be exact at the exact moment it exits the mouthpiece. DO NOT ADJUST. If it comes out wrong stop and begin again until you can get the exact pitch from the moment of attack until the moment of release.
4) With mouthpiece back on horn play the pitch. It must have the same exacting pitch stability as when you were successful with your singing and buzzing. DO NOT ACCEPT *CLOSE*. Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.
When you can do this with single notes, progress to two connected notes, then three, then a short phrase, etc until you are no longer swooping or scooping notes.
Also, while doing this you may also want to pay attention to the "front edge" of the attack. Like the piano, the sound comes out at full strength. The volume should not swell into the note. As you release the note make sure the pitch doesn't change. This is important because you will need to learn to shape releases, if not now, in the future.
Hope this helps you. _________________ Schilke B1, Bach 37, 1969 Getzen Severinsen Eterna
Bach C 229 w Charlie Melk custom work
Getzen Eterna Cornet, Crappy old Yamaha 3valve Eb
Stanton Kramer "Signature" Mouthpiece |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3260 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 8:16 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | One of the pedagogy books i recently read (can't recall which author though, sorry) talks about 'singing' the note mentally.. setting up the vocal chords etc to the right air speed etc, and then playing. |
Set the vocal chords for the pitch you want to sing.
Set the embouchure for the pitch you will play.
Air speed is not related to pitch. |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2349 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 8:39 am Post subject: |
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[quote="kalijah"] Quote: |
Air speed is not related to pitch. |
ummm... yes, it is! have you ever swung a plastic tube around and notice that if you swing it faster the partials change? air speed has a direct affect on vibration. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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stanton Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Aug 2007 Posts: 726 Location: Skokie, Illinois
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 8:40 am Post subject: |
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kalijah wrote: | Quote: | One of the pedagogy books i recently read (can't recall which author though, sorry) talks about 'singing' the note mentally.. setting up the vocal chords etc to the right air speed etc, and then playing. |
Set the vocal chords for the pitch you want to sing.
Set the embouchure for the pitch you will play.
Air speed is not related to pitch. |
It's the first time I have to fully disagree with you Darryl.
"Air speed is not related to pitch."....??????
If that's the case, then one's lips must have the strength of Superman if airspeed has nothing to do with pitch. If speed of air is unimportant in changing pitches, then why are tongue levels/arch critical to changing pitch? BECAUSE IT CHANGES AIR SPEED. The tongue arch operates much like the wing of an airplane. The reason an airplane gets lift is because, due to the shape of the wing, the SHAPE causes the air to move FASTER over the top of the wing than the bottom. If one did not have a tongue one could not play the trumpet because one could not create acceleration/deceleration of the air stream nor focus it to the aperture.
And while aperture/embouchure set is important, how can one play a single note with many different embouchure sets. If embouchure were the sole arbiter of pitch, how can I play a low G with the same set as a high G (and possibly vice versa)? And if embouchure were the sole determinant of pitch, how can I bend notes, often in intervals without changing my embouchure?
Respectfully,
Stanton
P.S. It is my opinion that one of the reasons that trumpet players have problems, particularly endurance problems is because they depend on embouchure movement far more than required. _________________ Schilke B1, Bach 37, 1969 Getzen Severinsen Eterna
Bach C 229 w Charlie Melk custom work
Getzen Eterna Cornet, Crappy old Yamaha 3valve Eb
Stanton Kramer "Signature" Mouthpiece |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3260 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:33 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | If speed of air is unimportant in changing pitches, then why are tongue levels/arch critical to changing pitch? BECAUSE IT CHANGES AIR SPEED. |
Air speed where?
Did you measure it? the air speed, that is. |
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mm55 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2013 Posts: 1414
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:57 am Post subject: |
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stanton wrote: | The reason an airplane gets lift is because, due to the shape of the wing, the SHAPE causes the air to move FASTER over the top of the wing than the bottom. |
The debunked "Bernoilli myth" explanation for how an airfoil works has been abandoned by wing designers, but it seems to hang on in trumpet circles. _________________ '75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
'13 CarolBrass CFL-6200-GSS-BG flg
Last edited by mm55 on Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:56 am; edited 1 time in total |
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mm55 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2013 Posts: 1414
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:05 am Post subject: |
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The speed of air through the space between the arched tongue and the soft palate does not control the speed of air through the lip aperture. Notwithstanding incorrect application of the Bernoulli principle and misunderstanding of the "thumb on a garden hose" analogy. _________________ '75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
'13 CarolBrass CFL-6200-GSS-BG flg
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TrumpetDan79 Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2015 Posts: 157
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:30 am Post subject: Re: Starting the note |
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Lie601 wrote: | Hi All,
So I have been playing for a few years now, but recently one of my peers told me that I am "swooping" into the note. Let me clarify, she said that I am not starting on the note but rather I am starting somewhere below it and sliding up to the note. How would I fix this!
Thanks! |
Hello,
The study of the emission is a lifelong journey, and it's nice to see a question about this. Beginning pitches in the CENTER is the goal, and this takes a lot of dedication to wrestle with.
The first step is always in the ear, the most important part of the process. We INTERNALIZE pitch, rhythm, color....all the ingredients that go into the pieces we prepare.
We must remember an audience only hears 3 elements of our trumpet playing: The beginning of sounds, the follow through of the phrase, and the ends of sounds.
I had the great fortune of spending a great deal of time with Hakan Hardenberger this past June, learning this very important skill, and how the action is extremely similar throughout all the ranges, and no matter the dynamic.
It's extremely difficult to diagnose and give you advice without hearing, and it's even more so to demonstrate solutions through writing.
From a sonic point of view, the goal is to cleanly start notes...usually we get an "fffffff" sound, an "F" sound before the tongue or 'p' articulation takes place.
Listening and TIMING is really a key to all of this, and most people don't spend nearly enough time with this.
I would suggest you seek out a private teacher that can work with you. This part of the playing is critical to our success, especially when we start talking about endurance and not "leaking energy," during very difficult pieces.
Do you own the Merri Franquin book? The Arban? These two books REALLY get to the heart of this, especially the Franquin.
You might want to think of some very specific questions, post a sound clip of repeated entrances at a slow tempo, soft, loud, etc.
Just some options for you.
Best,
Daniel _________________ Daniel J. Flores
Trumpet Artist
www.dflorestrumpet.com |
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stanton Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Aug 2007 Posts: 726 Location: Skokie, Illinois
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:56 am Post subject: |
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mm55 wrote: | stanton wrote: | The reason an airplane gets lift is because, due to the shape of the wing, the SHAPE causes the air to move FASTER over the top of the wing than the bottom. required. |
The debunked "Bernoilli myth" explanation for how an airfoil works has been abandoned by wing designers, but it seems to hang on in trumpet circles. |
Then how do you explain the effects of flaps as it pertains to lift? _________________ Schilke B1, Bach 37, 1969 Getzen Severinsen Eterna
Bach C 229 w Charlie Melk custom work
Getzen Eterna Cornet, Crappy old Yamaha 3valve Eb
Stanton Kramer "Signature" Mouthpiece |
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Sarah Veteran Member
Joined: 19 Jul 2016 Posts: 113 Location: Australia
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm. I guess it is how u think of air speed....
Again. Please be aware m speciality is woodwind.... So that is my knowledge base
But if u blow harder then u split to a higher harmonic... It may not sound pretty but you get it. The molecules in a higher harmonic move differently to a lower one. There are more nodes inside the instrument (and therefore outside too) is. I am pretty sure the sound wave goes from a peak to. Trough faster too (just thinking through create harmonics on the violin where u can see the amplitude of the various waves
Now we can speed up the air without blowing faster, curvature of the tongue, size of embouchure being the main ones.w which as we know produces a better sound.b it if the air leaving your lips is the wrong speed then the swooping thing happens.because you are adjusting your air speed mid note.
I assume that the thinking about singing thing is actually achieving the same control of air speed actually... As it chooses the write amount of air t set the sound wave in motion. . But that is hypothesising now.
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3260 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | Now we can speed up the air without blowing faster, curvature of the tongue, size of embouchure being the main ones |
Curvature of the tongue does not increase the air speed through the aperture. Neither does the size of the aperture. Speed through an aperture is not determined by its size. |
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Jerry Freedman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jan 2002 Posts: 2476 Location: Burlington, Massachusetts
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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Probably redundant but practice "releasing' air in a through a set up embouchure. Maybe you are getting the notes to sound and then bringing them up to the pitch you want them to be |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 3:31 pm Post subject: Re: Starting the note |
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TrumpetDan79 wrote: | Do you own the Merri Franquin book? The Arban? These two books REALLY get to the heart of this, especially the Franquin. |
+1. Page 85, Étude de l’émission des sons (Study on the emission of sounds, or something like that). Basically just exercises to start a note very, very softly, rest a bit, then start another. There's a meter to this (you could play with a metronome) such that you want to start each note right on time with a clear, distinctive start (but not explosive).
John Daniels Special Studies for Trumpet is a newer book that has a bunch of exercises to improve embouchure response: breath attacks, efficiency exercises played whisper-soft, note bending exercises. A more responsive embouchure helps with initial accuracy.
You can also make up simple exercises to work on this. Just inhale, start a note softly and deadly-accurate, rest, then do the same thing with another note. Mix it up a bit. I do this every day (but unfortunately not always deadly-accurate, which is why I keep working on this). _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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McVouty Veteran Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2008 Posts: 149
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Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:52 am Post subject: |
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Arban pg 125 slow and steady, daily until you can't miss every note.
As others have mentioned you need to get used to hearing the note before you play it - you have to show the trumpet where the note is and not let the trumpet tell you where to go!
Hope that helps.
Carl |
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mm55 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2013 Posts: 1414
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Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:03 am Post subject: |
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stanton wrote: | mm55 wrote: | stanton wrote: | The reason an airplane gets lift is because, due to the shape of the wing, the SHAPE causes the air to move FASTER over the top of the wing than the bottom. |
The debunked "Bernoilli myth" explanation for how an airfoil works has been abandoned by wing designers, but it seems to hang on in trumpet circles. |
Then how do you explain the effects of flaps as it pertains to lift? |
When the wing is moving forward and flaps are deployed, the flaps deflect air downward; a downward force. Per Newton's third law, there is also an upward force. This upward force is lift. _________________ '75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
'13 CarolBrass CFL-6200-GSS-BG flg
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TRUMPONIMUS Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 195 Location: MID-ATLANTIC STATES
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Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:07 am Post subject: |
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Did you try and ask the person who told you that you were doing this?
She might be able to show you how to fix it and you will hear the results at the same time.
Jimmy _________________ "When you're done learning ... you're done living! |
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NYC-player Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Jun 2016 Posts: 627
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Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:15 am Post subject: Re: Starting the note |
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Lie601 wrote: | Hi All,
So I have been playing for a few years now, but recently one of my peers told me that I am "swooping" into the note. Let me clarify, she said that I am not starting on the note but rather I am starting somewhere below it and sliding up to the note. How would I fix this!
Thanks! |
Sounds like you are starting the note with an air attack instead of a tongue attack.
Make sure you are actually articulating the not not just "hoofing" into the pitch.
Air attacks .... rarely any place in trumpet playing. Every note should have a beginning and and end, and should be controlled with the tongue starting and stopping every pitch. |
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