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Melc Regular Member
Joined: 02 Sep 2016 Posts: 11
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Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:28 pm Post subject: What exactly is happening when you get tired and can't play? |
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I am new to trumpet and learning it and having fun.
I try my best not to overdue it, but it seems my endurance is really low at the moment. 1 hour of practice in the morning and a break until around 7 pm, and I notice my lips get immediately tired on the second practice session.
I try to play softly and just get through another 30 minutes at least, but what is going on?
what physically is happening that I can't effectively hit my higher notes (at leat for me this is simply an space E)?
I try to do slurs from C G C and B F# B, but my lips feel stiff and i find it difficult compared to when fresh and it just glides into higher notes effortlessly.
? _________________ loving this trumpet thing |
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Bryant Jordan Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2015 Posts: 410 Location: Utah, USA
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Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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Just like other muscles in your body, your chops can get tired. And also just like other muscles, they can be strengthened and gain endurance. It will happen gradually as you get further into playing, although you can greatly increase your endurance with certain exercises, such as isometrics. When your chops get tired, they will need time to recover, as you have experienced. I'm glad you are enjoying playing the wonderful instrument we call a trumpet. It's one of (if not the best) decisions I've ever made. It's worth the work 100
times over. Keep posting if you need any advice. |
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GeorgeB Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Apr 2016 Posts: 1063 Location: New Glasgow, Nova Scotia
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Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 2:20 am Post subject: |
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What Bryant said.
You didn't say how long you've been playing, but by the sound of things it has not been for very long. Endurance takes time and you maybe overdoing it in your first practice session. I was doing that when I came back after a 50 year absence. I started out practicing twice a day, 2 hours in the morning and 90 minutes in the afternoon and never taking proper rests. This was overkill. My afternoon sessions were terrible because my lips had not recovered. Everything changed for the better after I cut back to an hour on the face in the morning and the same in the afternoon.
A 1 hour morning practice session may be too much for you this early in the game. And if you are not be taking enough rests, then you are beating your chops all to hell. That would explain why your 7 pm sessions are weak. Your chops have just not recovered.
Stick with it, but perhaps you should ease up a bit. Good things take time. _________________ GeorgeB
1960s King Super 20 Silversonic
2016 Manchester Brass Custom
1938-39 Olds Recording
1942 Buescher 400 Bb trumpet
1952 Selmer Paris 21 B
1999 Conn Vintage One B flat trumpet
2020 Getzen 490 Bb
1962 Conn Victor 5A cornet |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2333 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 2:57 am Post subject: |
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Muscle fatigue - your embouchure is made up of small muscles that aren't used to playing an instrument. It takes time (lots of time) to train them and as you do you will also learn to play more efficiently, refining your effort.
As a young player, I would suggest more frequent shorter sessions.. something like:
1st session - 20-30 minutes of warm-up/routine (which includes easy playing-loing tones, scales, Clarke Studies - that kind of thing) Like and athelete, this would be stretching, lite excercise, range of motion work, and focus on reinforcing good technique.
2nd session - after at least an hour or two off, a brief warm-up followed by 30-40 minutes of exercises, etudes, solos, whaterver you're working on; being careful to rest (horn off of your face) nearly as much as you're playing.
3rd session - if you have time for another short session, work on something else - try to keep your playing balanced between soft and loud, fast and slow, high and low.
at the end of a long day/session, where you feel your chops being fatigued, try doing a short "warm-down" - a few minutes of easy, soft playing (Flow Studies, Concone, something gentle and lyrical). Like stretching out after a long run.
like other aspects of trumpet, endurance will develope with time as your embouchure matures and your playing becomes more efficient.
good luck _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman
Last edited by zaferis on Fri Sep 09, 2016 4:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Raggerty Regular Member
Joined: 07 May 2016 Posts: 99
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Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 3:43 am Post subject: Re: What exactly is happening when you get tired and can't p |
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Melc wrote: | What physically is happening that I can't effectively hit my higher notes? |
As I understand it, you muscles are just tired, but unlike fatigue in say your legs, you can't really feel that these small muscles are tired. |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 4:29 am Post subject: |
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Listen to what your body is telling you: you're overdoing it.
Try practicing just once a day. Easy warmup, play a little, rest a little. When you feel tired, even after resting a little, stop. You're done. Swab, oil the valves, wipe it down, put it away until tomorrow.
As you get stronger, you will be able to play multiple sessions in a day. But for now, your body needs time for rest and recovery. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2596
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Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:00 am Post subject: Re: What exactly is happening when you get tired and can't p |
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Melc wrote: | I am new to trumpet and learning it and having fun.
I try my best not to overdue it, but it seems my endurance is really low at the moment. 1 hour of practice in the morning and a break until around 7 pm, and I notice my lips get immediately tired on the second practice session. |
Speculating of course since it's hard to be precise without actually seeing you play. A certain amount of fatigue is normal. When you feel yourself struggling, stop and rest. What others have said sounds valid. Cut back on how much you're playing. An hour of nonstop contact of the mouthpiece on your lips is too much. It would be too much for a very advanced player.
Be aware that the muscles should feel fatigued, the lips shouldn't feel injured. I.e. be sure you're not using excess pressure. How much is excessive? When your lips feel injured.
What do you work on? Are you taking lessons? _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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Gandalfe Regular Member
Joined: 03 Mar 2014 Posts: 89 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:26 am Post subject: |
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As you build up your chops, you could work in some music theory, do rhythm exercises, and of course, listen to the kind of music you hope to participate in. It wouldn't hurt to have a good instructor check out your technique, that could return some big benefits. Enjoy the journey back to performance music. _________________ Microsoft Jumpin' Jive Orchestra ~ Quinn the Eskimo Vintage Horns |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:40 am Post subject: |
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In a nutshell, it is your mind that is tired.
It's not about strength, it's about coordination. Coordination requires a great deal of focus and concentration. By the end of the day our mind is full of distractions from our daily activities. Start your evening practice session by listening to some good trumpet recordings; Doc Severinsen, Maurice Andre, etc. Bring your mind into trumpet mode. Pay special attention to taking a relaxed breath and release the sound from your mind. _________________ Bill Bergren |
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Melc Regular Member
Joined: 02 Sep 2016 Posts: 11
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Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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After reading all your comments,
my main concern now is that it is my lips that feel injured (not in extreme sense),
I don't think I am putting too much pressure, in fact I am using a mouthpiece that sort of forces me to use less pressure, a Bach 12C, since I have fleshy lips I really have to play gently on it, but now I am not sure. I really enjoy the rim feel on this 12C, it feels wide compared to a 7C i was using.
I want to emphasize my lips don't feel overly injured and I am not feeling pain or playing through pain,
just that I don't really feel any muscles get tired, just my lips, but I suppose this is normal, since lips probably are more sensitive to feel and touch. _________________ loving this trumpet thing |
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Andy Del Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2665 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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You really do need to get some lessons from a good teacher. Local or Skype, it is going to save you a lot of angst, then time and eventually money by investing in this right now.
You don't know what you don't know, and this leads to your description not being accurate, even i you think you know what is going on. Then taking advice which doesn't take on board your situation (as it's not described accurately) and it all goes south from there.
No one is being malicious, but unless they can hear and see you play, and know what to advise, it's all pot shots in the dark...
cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes... |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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Rest up. Allow time for recovery. Consider yourself to be in rehabilitation mode, like an athlete coming back after an injury. When you play, pace yourself. Don't keep playing on tired chops.
You have to be smart about how you go forward from here. If you continue to beat up your chops, your brain will program itself to make your chops sort of wince or shrink back in fear, like an injured athlete with a limp. If this becomes a habit, it will become very difficult to reprogram your brain and embouchure to develop strength built on a solid foundation again.
I also suggest you get help from a competent teacher if possible to put you on a sensible program so you can develop skills properly without beating yourself up. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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roynj Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Oct 2002 Posts: 2065
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Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 6:29 pm Post subject: Re: What exactly is happening when you get tired and can't p |
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Melc wrote: | I am new to trumpet and learning it and having fun.
I try my best not to overdue it, but it seems my endurance is really low at the moment. 1 hour of practice in the morning and a break until around 7 pm, and I notice my lips get immediately tired on the second practice session.
I try to play softly and just get through another 30 minutes at least, but what is going on?
what physically is happening that I can't effectively hit my higher notes (at leat for me this is simply an space E)?
I try to do slurs from C G C and B F# B, but my lips feel stiff and i find it difficult compared to when fresh and it just glides into higher notes effortlessly.
? |
(1) your practice time is too long in one stretch. try two 20 min sessions with at least 10 min rest in between. No more.
(2) your approach has something wrong with it. Only a trumpet teacher can evaluate what you're doing in person. Get a lesson as soon as possible and tell your instructor about your playing issues.
(3) What made you change to a Bach 12 mouthpiece? That is quite a smallish mp, and that could be also part of your problem. |
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Craig Swartz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 7770 Location: Des Moines, IA area
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Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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Often times the problem is not necessarily fatigue- if one is just tired, one usually stops the activity. Worse is when we start compensating for either fatigue or stress (fairly likely in many endeavors, particularly performance-oriented ones) by doing things that are actually counterproductive to playing. Then we build bad habits that creep into all the playing, fresh or tired, and they're a bitch to repair. So- (you guessed it), you may do yourself a favor by finding someone to mentor you, as in, seek a qualified instructor who can lead you down the right path, or back onto it. Good luck. |
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Melc Regular Member
Joined: 02 Sep 2016 Posts: 11
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Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:35 pm Post subject: Re: What exactly is happening when you get tired and can't p |
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roynj wrote: |
(1) your practice time is too long in one stretch. try two 20 min sessions with at least 10 min rest in between. No more.
(2) your approach has something wrong with it. Only a trumpet teacher can evaluate what you're doing in person. Get a lesson as soon as possible and tell your instructor about your playing issues.
(3) What made you change to a Bach 12 mouthpiece? That is quite a smallish mp, and that could be also part of your problem. |
Ya, I think breaking them down to less will suit me, I already did this today and feel good; instead of 1 hour, I do 4 15 minute practice spread through out day and lips feel better. Note that I am not doing 15 minutes of mouthpiece on lips constantly... I have stops in between like regular person with some slurs then small break and do scale, then small break then do slurs again etc, I am not really practicing as much as I would like tbh, but my endurance has to improve first.
regarding teacher: I simply cannot afford one at the moment. I am poor and I am hoping to get my act together and get more money coming in, but I am seeing quotes for 1 hour lessons here in greater Los Angeles region that go for around 30-40 dollars an hour. I figure I can afford one hour a month, but this seems like not enough, and i wonder if teachers have a set minimum because I really can't see 1 hour a month doing it for a good comprehensive teaching.
As for the 12C, that just feels right to me. The rim feels wide and flat compared to the 7C, I am tempted to get a 7CW to try it out, but I don't want to change things up when I feel right on the 12C as it is. I have to admit, the Bach Brochure description for the 12C seems about right for me as I do have somewhat big lips:
Quote: | 12C Medium 15.20 mm Broad, rather flat.
Brilliant tone, easy high register for trumpeters who have to play forte in the upper range and for players with heavy, weak lips who have difficulty with the high tones. |
_________________ loving this trumpet thing |
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orpheusdjh New Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2016 Posts: 5 Location: Warner Robins, Georgia
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Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with Gandalfe. Practice time should include more than physically playing the instrument. I have my beginning students do breathing exercises without their instrument for just a few minutes each session. The US Army Field Band has an excellent post about this; and, of course, YouTube has tons of videos. One of the best ones I saw recently was a physical therapist teaching proper diaphragmatic breathing. It is not a waste of time to work on breath support or music theory or other aspects of your musicianship in addition to the muscle memory from actually practicing your instrument. |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1474 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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Melc wrote: | After reading all your comments,
my main concern now is that it is my lips that feel injured (not in extreme sense),
I don't think I am putting too much pressure, in fact I am using a mouthpiece that sort of forces me to use less pressure, a Bach 12C, since I have fleshy lips I really have to play gently on it, but now I am not sure. I really enjoy the rim feel on this 12C, it feels wide compared to a 7C i was using.
I want to emphasize my lips don't feel overly injured and I am not feeling pain or playing through pain,
just that I don't really feel any muscles get tired, just my lips, but I suppose this is normal, since lips probably are more sensitive to feel and touch. |
Try the BE method and don't overdo it! You'll be amazed.
Doing it 8 months now has provided me with the best stamina I've ever had.
73 now. Three sessions a day up to 1 hour facetime in all. _________________ Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:50 am Post subject: |
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You mentioned that you might be able to afford a one hour lesson once per month, I would definitely do that assuming you can find a qualified teacher.
Sure, it would probably be better to do one half hour lesson per week, but an hour once a month is certainly better than nothing because hopefully your teacher can address things you need to change and/or improve on, which you can then work on between lessons.
Regarding muscle fatigue: if you feel that's a big part of your problem, maybe you could do with a bit of rest. I know that there was a period of time that because I was terrified that missing a day of practice would set me back, I was actually keeping myself chronically tired. Some people here will disagree and say that you should never miss a day of practice, speaking for myself I need rest on occasion. One of the things that helps muscles to strengthen is the rest time needed to repair themselves after activity. But then you look at people like Doc who feels that practice every day without fail is critical.....can't really argue with someone as successful as he is.
But again, I think your best bet would be to find a way to find a private teacher, if only once per month, skype lessons might be worth looking into also.
Best of luck!
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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Lionel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783
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Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 7:08 am Post subject: Re: What exactly is happening when you get tired and can't p |
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Melc wrote: | I am new to trumpet and learning it and having fun.
I try my best not to overdue it, but it seems my endurance is really low at the moment. 1 hour of practice in the morning and a break until around 7 pm, and I notice my lips get immediately tired on the second practice session.
I try to play softly and just get through another 30 minutes at least, but what is going on?
what physically is happening that I can't effectively hit my higher notes (at leat for me this is simply an space E)?
I try to do slurs from C G C and B F# B, but my lips feel stiff and i find it difficult compared to when fresh and it just glides into higher notes effortlessly.
? |
What mouthpiece are you using?
As for your question:
The upper and vibrating lip (your lower only assists the upper it does not vibrate) loses circulation when fatigued. In turn it will become harder to blow through in irder to expect the same register. So you start losing notes at the top end of your range and flexibility drops off all over the horn.
Even articulation is affected by embouchure fatigue.
As most of my work is on lead I've chosen a mouthpiece which provides as much ease of playing as I can get while still being able to maintain a solid technique.
I've recently started pondering why any seasoned trumpet player would ever use excessive arm pressure just to play his concert B Flat above the staff. It's just not that high enough of a note. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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Shoki New Member
Joined: 02 Feb 2018 Posts: 2
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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:46 am Post subject: im new just read post |
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hello ive been playing trumpet since i was a kid all througout college. took 20yr break now im getting back into it. i have a problem where the two left corners puff up more than my 2 right ones.
i know since i just started 3 weeks ago the swelling(puffyness for fewhours) is normal. i also noticed adding stretching my lips helps alot. i know i am positioned correctly on mouthpiece from mirror etc. also when i lip slur pedal to upper registers i can feel that proper pocket where the notes thin out. made the mistake of thinking that would last lol. at least i know my goal is there. as we all know though when that fatigue and lip swell starts up its time to take a break and rest. this forum is unbelievable with the people and knowledge here.
i dont want to mess up and have to undo later. any advice _________________ 1965 H N White King Silver Flair 425647 |
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