Superhorns vs. Practice

[Trptbenge]

I think we all do change. I think that lot of the solution can be handled by mouthpiece adjustment. I think that to get a Super Horn just to get a Super horn and expect to make you a better player is foolish. Each of us needs to find a horn that fits our own needs. If you can find a top horn that is close you can have it adjusted to better fit your playing style. Of course you can also have a custom horn made. The most important thing is that a horn does not get in the way of your musical expression. There are many professional level horns that will fit that bill. But as we all know equipment involves two issues - the horn and the mouthpiece. If you have an issue with either one then your playing will be affected. Good equipment combined with intelligent, consistent and passionate practice will make us each better players.

Mike

[_dcstep]

Spitty, I think you were addressing me, Dave or dcstep as "DC". If not, I'm sorry.

I've been playing 46-years and I've owned a few horns in that time. In the last couple of years I've become good friends with a saleman at Brook Mays, a very large dealer. He lets me know when anything new comes in. Also, I met the regional sales guy for Conn Selmer and Jupiter and got to play a prototype here and there. I attended ITG last may and, more recently, hosted the first DFW Trumpetfest. So, you see, I've been lucky to try a lot of horns. (A few guys around here are also collectors -- I'm NOT a collector, but I like being around them). There's a core of us that are pretty liberal at loaning horns to the others for a few days of audition and evaluation.

I try to be accurate in my reports and only comment on horns that I've actually held or played. Hopefully I can help a comebacker or young person or two avoid a pitfall or two.

Ciao,

Dve
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Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

[Martin]

Let me take a view from a slightly different angle. My experience with "superhorns" is limited to the VWI trumpets designed by Romeo Adaci.

http://www.vwi.at/eng/startkatalog.html

I tried a couple of them, and these really are in a different league. They almost play themselves, it´s scary.
In terms of sound and agility, these instantly made me a better player as soon as I blew into them.

BUT being an self-taught amateur comeback player with rather little practice time, I simply feel I´m not worthy (for the lack of a better word) of a horn like this.

Could I afford it? Yes.
Do I need it? Certainly not, but that never kept me from buying a horn.
Would I like one? Not really. It´s just a bit over the top for a player like me. I wouldn´t feel comfortable with one, and I´d never be able to really take advantage of its possibilities anyway.

I now own a French Besson Marvin Stamm, a Meha and an Olds Super. These are great horns, more than adequate for me, and I bought all three of them for much less than I would have to spend for one of the "superhorns".
_________________
All the best

Martin
_____________________________________________________________________
"I have found that it is enough when a single note is beautifully played." - Arvo Pärt

[Fast Freddy]

Having the right equipment is still a part of the game but it's only one element in the formula, as we all should know by now. I can see where the confusion lies though...
This is the "Horns" forum. Stands to reason that "horns" are going to be the topic of discussion here. However, the subject matter of this forum shouldn't be a barometer of practice habits for the masses who choose to play certain type-cast equipment. To assume that those who choose to play "super-horns" have abandoned practise for "equipment" is just crazy... as are most assumptions.

Take care.

[redface]

I have a superhorn, but it broke and in the meantime I am using a Yamaha Z off the shelf, I sound pretty much the same, but on the superhorn I knew any substandard playing was down to me and me alone. On the Z it is still mostly me, but intonation and variation in tonal colour is slightly harder to achieve than on the superhorn. So practice is easier on a superhorn, because you know that you are the problem not the horn.

But when it comes to showtime, i don't even notice the difference - it has to be right, whatever horn you use.

[Nonsense Eliminator]

I have never heard the term "superhorn" outside of Trumpet Herald.

I have heard trumpets referred to as "factory" or "custom" or "handmade" or "cheap crap from India", but not as a "superhorn". What constitutes a "superhorn"? Well, if it's because it's "super" then obviously a "super" horn is better than a "non-super" horn. However, it seems to me that there is a much more objective criterion being applied here to determine whether or not a horn is "super": price.

The horns people like to refer to as "super" are more expensive. Period. There is a very simple reason why they are more expensive. They are constructed in smaller quantities, involving more labour performed by more highly-skilled builders, and because the volume is smaller, there is less opportunity to spread the fixed overhead costs over more instruments. Let's set aside the overhead issue, because that actually artificially inflates the price of these instruments versus their "actual value".

Let us assume that every "superhorn" is constructed with a great deal of individual attention from exceptionally talented builders. That assumption is not necessarily true, but as you will see that is immaterial to my point, to which I promise I will get eventually. Given that assumption, we can conclude that a "superhorn" is better-constructed than an instrument which is made on an assembly line. As a consequence, there ought to be fewer fit and finish problems, both cosmetic and functional, and the instrument should be constructed fairly close to the designer's ideal.

So, what makes these "superhorns" "super" is the fact that due to better construction techniques, they are absolutely as good as the design allows. And here is the problem.

Nobody is arguing that "superhorns" aren't well-constructed. However, just because an instrument is lovingly built one at a time by a master builder does NOT necessarily mean that it is well in tune, or has a good sound, or plays evenly. It means that, if the design is good, it will do those things. But I don't think it is reasonable to assume that every "superhorn" is better-designed than a factory horn. Yes, poor construction will almost always lead to poor pitch and sound and consistency. But that does not mean that the opposite is true.

I think the example of Yamaha is a good one to raise here. Most people will happily agree that Yamaha's manufacturing processes are highly consistent, and that each horn that comes off their line is as good as the design allows. However, until the Xenos and the much-awaited Malone horns, most professional players regarded them as well-built and consistent, but still not preferable to a good Bach. That is, just because a horn is built better does not mean it will play better. Clearly, the problem was not in the workmanship but in the design. It would seem that Yamaha agrees with this assessment, as they have chosen to redesign their horns, to great success. The Xenos are made on an assembly line, just like the Mark IIs, but most people like them better. Not because they're better-built, but because they're better-designed.

The point is, "superhorns" are not instrinsically any better than their factory-built counterparts. If the design of a particular "superhorn" is right for you, then that instrument will be a fantastic choice. However, it is certainly possible that the right design for a given player may be the design used by Bach or Yamaha or Conn. In some cases it may be more difficult to find a well-constructed example of that design, but for that individual a well-made Bach may very well yield better results than any "superhorn".

My goal is not to put down those who choose to play "superhorns". It may very well be that some or all of those people have found the design that fits them best. However, I think it is extremely unwise to assume that the fact that a given instrument costs more means that it will sound better. It will sound like it's supposed to, but how it's supposed to sound may or may not be preferable for a particular player in a particular situation.

Just to close on something a little closer to the orginal topic, I wonder how many "superhorn" owners can honestly say that they sound better on a $3000 instrument than they would on a $1500 instrument with $1500 worth of lessons?

Obviously, that question comes across as rather antagonistic, and to a certain extent that's fine. If somebody is a lifelong amateur with money to spend and little inclination or opportunity to take lessons, then I certainly don't see any problem with that person spending as much money as he likes on whatever horns tickle his fancy. However, I also don't want that individual trying to tell me what to play! On the other hand, what does concern me is people (obviously, mostly younger people) who claim to want to get somewhere on the instrument, but put investing in instruments ahead of investing in lessons. That's why I don't think all this talk about "superhorns" as some kind of golden key is particularly helpful. There is no guarantee that a "superhorn" will be any better than a well-built factory horn. But $1500 can buy a lot of very good instruction.

The offering will now be received. :wink:

[ This Message was edited by: Nonsense Eliminator on 2004-01-21 23:25 ]

[_dcstep]

Amen.
_________________
Schilke '60 B1 -- 229 Bach-C/19-350 Blackburn -- Lawler TL Cornet -- Conn V1 Flugel -- Stomvi Master Bb/A/G picc -- GR mpcs
[url=http://www.pitpops.com] The PitPops[/url]
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

[jgadvert]

First..I whole heartedly agree that many irresponsible superhorn enthusiasts
many times encourage "the wrong people" to buy these types of horns.
Thats why I never mention the brand I play or encourage anyone to buy one unless they're specific situation is correct. I am a big advocate on buying used vintage pro horns.

Secondly: A superhorn is not a substitute for proper practice

But come on...a superhorn builder is not going to let a horn out of his shop that does not play perfect(faithful to the design...he'd be a fool to).
There is a super quality horn out there(that is right for everyone).
If it's not..the builder is usually happy to re-design/tweak(whatever) the horn to your specific liking...or offer another model in his line that is.

Don't make like superhorns are alot of marketing hype. I had an ignorant old man (French Besson lover) tell me that a few weeks ago and it pissed me off.

[_dcstep]

jgadvert, please, please, please tell us what you play.

(Anyway, your groupees probably already no the model, manufacturing date, modifications, serial number and how much your endorsement fee totalled).

I have what I play in my signature because it encourages discourse. People considering the horn will often drop me a note. I steer a lot of them away from the Concept TT if I feel like another horn will better suit their playing, which seems to be the case much of the time (mainly because it's fairly large bore). Still, I meet lots of nice people and enjoy talking one-on-one about trumpets.

Dave
_________________
Schilke '60 B1 -- 229 Bach-C/19-350 Blackburn -- Lawler TL Cornet -- Conn V1 Flugel -- Stomvi Master Bb/A/G picc -- GR mpcs
[url=http://www.pitpops.com] The PitPops[/url]
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

[jgadvert]

Dcstep:

Your right...my Down & Dirty(downanddirtyband.com) groupies know alot about my "equipment".....but back to Trumpets(ha ha). If you check my website(newer pictures up soon) you may be able to tell what I play.

[Nonsense Eliminator]

Well, I also think that vintage horns are way overhyped around here, but that's another story...

"But come on...a superhorn builder is not going to let a horn out of his shop that does not play perfect(faithful to the design...he'd be a fool to)."

A custom horn builder is going to make sure that the horns he makes live up to his expectations. However, his expectations and the buyer's are not necessarily going to coincide. No maker is going to build a horn that is right for everybody, because everybody's different.

"There is a super quality horn out there(that is right for everyone).
If it's not..the builder is usually happy to re-design/tweak(whatever) the horn to your specific liking...or offer another model in his line that is."

Why does it not follow that there is a factory horn out there for everybody? There are a lot more designs available, and there is no shortage of skilled people who are happy to "tweak the horn to your specific liking," in almost every instance for a price that is less than the difference between factory and custom horns. My contention is that there is a design of trumpet that is going to work for everybody. It seems to me that that design is every bit as likely to come from a factory as a custom shop. In fact, since many custom builders start from the premise, "I am going to build an instrument that plays the way I want," whereas large companies start from the premise, "We are going to build an instrument that we can sell to as many people as possible," it seems to me that one could make the argument that people may be more likely to find a factory horn that is within tweaking distance of being the right one.

"Don't make like superhorns are alot of marketing hype. I had an ignorant old man (French Besson lover) tell me that a few weeks ago and it pissed me off."

When did I say that?

If all manufacturers were working from the exact same design with the exact same materials and exact same procedures, the one who was the most skilled and most careful would build the best trumpet. However, this is not the case. Different builders work from different designs with different materials and different procedures. Consequently, if the design, materials, and procedures used by a particular builder does not suit a particular player, it does not matter how skillfully or carefully that builder puts the instrument together. That instrument will not suit that player. Conversely, it does not matter how inconsistent and careless a builder is, or how much automation they use, if they happen to have the right design for a particular player and get the instrument put together right at least occasionally.

The argument that is put forward by a lot of people, including jgadvert in this case, seems to be that for every player, the best possible instrument for them will eventually be a high-priced horn from a custom builder. It seems to me that whether or not you buy all my hypotheticals and tortuous attempts at reasoning, the fact that a great many professionals play horns that came from factories indicates that perhaps these so-called "superhorns" may not be for everyone.

[oneeyedhobbit]

Amen to what Nonsense Eliminator said in his first post, it seems the most logically sound of many here. People have different needs in their horns, we are blessed to have so many different designs to choose from. But because a horn is custom built and expensive hardly guarantees it is the right design for us. Just very consistently built to its design. Many, many great players have stopped playing their custom, hand-built horn for a production (which, to be technical, is hand built to, just by more people) for a production line horn that was better designed. So-called superhorns may be great for some-hell, I admit I'd love to try an Eclipse and a Lawler among others-but for many, a productiton line will serve as good and in some cases better. Too many younger players aim to use the name of their so called superhorn as an aims to impress.

[a-okay]

I really didnt expect this much wonderful discourse on the subject. Thanks

[SPITTY]

Hi Dave (DCstep),

I just wanted to say that I tried a Selmer Concept TT at The IAJE today and holy smokes - this horn rocks - I was very impressed not only with the great sound, but great feel, beautiful construction, etc . . . the whole enchilada. You weren't kidding.


All the best,
Spitty

[Bruce Lee]

Some really great points here! I particularly like this statement by Nonsense Eliminator:

"Nobody is arguing that "superhorns" aren't well-constructed. However, just because an instrument is lovingly built one at a time by a master builder does NOT necessarily mean that it is well in tune, or has a good sound, or plays evenly. It means that, if the design is good, it will do those things. But I don't think it is reasonable to assume that every "superhorn" is better-designed than a factory horn. Yes, poor construction will almost always lead to poor pitch and sound and consistency. But that does not mean that the opposite is true."

I think that one of the real issues here is money, and name brands which are recognized as "elitist", by the trumpet playing population. Don Herman brought up a very good point, in mentioning a Grand Piano. I would like everyone to search the internet for prices on Pro Saxes, Bassoons, etc. You won't have to go far to see that our instrument is one of the cheapest. I'm sure that Nonsense Eliminator would be able to tell us what some of the string players that he plays with pay for just a bow, let alone a violin, viola, cello, or bass.

My first Pro Horn was a Burbank Benge. I paid $250.00 for it. It was one of the best horns that I've ever played. A good friend of mine has a Bach trumpet that is another one of the finest horns that I have had an opportunity to play. I currently play an Eclipse Equinox, almost exclusively. What I enjoy most is the balance that I feel with the horn, along with the sound quality that it allows me to produce.

I am very fortunate to be in the position to have several lines of "superhorns" which I represent. I would never claim that any of them can make someone a better player. Lessons, practice, and experience are extremely important, and it should never be taken for granted that the horn will make the player. However, in comparison with many of the production line trumpets that I have played, the options available to the player can be more closely matched to the individual, which contributes to allowing that individual to produce the sound that he, or she hears in their own head.

We do see a lot of hype about vintage horns, as well. No doubt, there were some very fine trumpets produced 50 or more years ago. What I find incredibly amazing, is listening to some of the really old recordings, where you "know" that the quality of the instruments being played is nowhere near what it is today. While there are many vintage horns worth pursuing, caution needs to be taken to make certain that the instrument is mechanically sound. "Red rot" is usually one the biggest concerns, along with the valves. We read a lot about valve compression. In general, the better compression, the better the slotting. However, one thing to consider with vintage horns is that the manufacturing/machining tolerances were not as precise as they are today.

Continuing along the lines of the vintage trumpet discussion, many believe that if they play the mouthpiece or trumpet that their idol played, that they will experience the same success. Guess what? That "vintage" trumpet that they played may have been the latest and greatest "superhorn" in their day.

I do believe that Nonsense Eliminator's point is extremely well-intentioned, and aimed particularly at the younger, inexperienced player who takes everything that they read here as being the Gospel Truth, as far as the trumpet world is concerned. I applaud that thinking, and hope that I may have provided another perspective on the subject.

Find a way to enjoy playing the trumpet. The true cost should be in the effort that we put into learning to play the horn. Only by achieving musical success can we truly appreciate the "tools" that allow us to achieve our goals!

Amen!

Best always,
Bruce
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Please contact me for BE Lessons

[nowherenearadoublec]

Who can argue with that? Bruce, as always speaks the truth. I am currently buing an instrument from him and man, he knows what he is talking about!
Thanks again, Bruce
Alan