Looking for a comparable trumpet.

Sooner · Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 7:12 pm Post subject:

Right now I am playing on a vintage conn 40b however I find that because of the style of the trumpet and the distance between the valves and the mouthpiece I am using too much pressure.
The situation has become bad enough that I have been using my bach 37 for lead playing now.
I absolutely love the way that the 40b blows, but I fear that the pressure will eventually get the better of me.
Basicly I would like to find a trumpet that blows as comparably to my 40b as possible, only in a more modern style with the valve casing closer to the mouthpiece.

Trptbenge · Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2004 5:58 pm Post subject:

If you really like the horn I would work on conciously using less pressure. Check out how some trumpet players hold their horns differently so there won't be as much pressure. Go to trumpetstuff.com and check out the picture of Dave Stahl. You might want to try that.

Mike
_________________
It's the sound that makes the difference!

Sooner · Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2004 6:09 pm Post subject:

Well the thing is that I don't have a problem with pressure on my Bach, its only caused by the strange design of the 40b.

tom turner · Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2004 7:01 pm Post subject:

Hi,

The Vocabell 40B is a cool .459 bore vintage trumpet to play lead on in a big band setting (ala the Hampton Band section of the 1930's).

Two suggestions:

1. Get a valve alignment if you haven't lately. Felts compress and deteriorate and can throw the alignment (and performance) off greatly over time.

2. Check the balance of the horn. If it is "bell-heavy," a heavier mouthpiece design or a Holton "Tone Intensifier" slipped over a conventional mouthpiece may balance the horn perfectly in your hands to reduce the pressure of holding up an unbalanced horn.

However . . . I suspect the culprit is a valve alignment problem if the horn is in great shape otherwise.

A third option? Get a Shulmann System trumpet holder that is used with a neck strap. These REALLY help players reduce pressure and tension because the horn rests on the Shulmann holder rather than arm pressure being brought to bare.

Maybe someone else can give you some other ideas too . . . but I suspect #1.

Good luck!

Tom

Sooner · Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 12:12 am Post subject:

Ok. I guess I didn't do a very good job of explaining my problem. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the way that the horn plays. The valves all work perfectly and are in alighnment. Here is a simple diagram of what I am having trouble with.

(Chops) MP--(leadpipe)----------Valves. This would be like the conn.

(Chops) MP--(leadpipe)-------Valves. This would be like the bach and about every single other instrument ever manufactured.

It has nothing to do with the way that the conn plays. I LOVE the way that the horn plays. I simply have to hold it to far away from my face because of the way it is designed. There is no other way to hold it and still have my fingers over the valves that will solve this problem.
That is why I am looking to a modern alternative, and I was hoping that someone could recommend a horn that blows similarly, but is designed like a modern horn.
_________________
N.Y. Bach 31 bell S-bore (.440) 50XX, Bob Reeves 41sv-692s, Bach MV 1.5C/warburton 9 BB for legit.

Proffessional poker dealer/player (helps support my music habit) and trumpet player of the Octopi.

Now a synth junkie as well

djm6701 · Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 3:52 am Post subject:

Have you tried the Yamaha Shew horn? The 6300-series one is very recently out of production and you can get great deals on a new one. It plays a bit smaller so you might like it. There is a new Yammy Bobby Shew model on the way in April if you wanted to wait until then. I've seen those Conns but haven't played one, so I don't know if they are fairly open or not.

Having said that, I'm really having trouble understanding how the placement of the valve block would cause more pressure. I play an Olds Recording that has the more distant valve block and I don't notice any difference in mouthpiece pressure between that horn and any of my others, which have the more modern arrangement. Are you talking about actual pressure of the mouthpiece against your chops?
_________________
Dave M.
Richmond Hill (Toronto) Ontario
Kanstul WB1600, 1952 L.A. Olds Recording, 1975 L.A. Benge 3x, 1960's Olds Flugel, Yamaha 631 Flugel

GR 65.6 Mouthpieces
a jazz.fm member

MaynardProdigy · Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 4:06 am Post subject:

I also had an Olds with the more distant valve block and I don't notice any difference in mouthpiece pressure. I used the same pressure that I use when I play my Bach. Then again, I do concentrate a lot on trying to use less MP pressure when I play.

_________________

Silver/Gold Bach Stad 43
81' MF ST-302
51' Olds Super (LA)
631 Yamaha Flugel
***Working on***
Yamaha Xeno
Martin Committee

[ This Message was edited by: MaynardProdigy on 2004-01-27 07:06 ]

supportlivejazz · Heavyweight Member Joined: 05 Jan 2003 Posts: 3757

I don't think I'm having trouble understanding...short arms???? Seriously, I notice a difference in the comfort of playing different makes relative to the placement of the valve block and the difference is in how much effort I have to put into stretching my arms out to maintain the right pressure on my mouth. I think the dude is describing a problem that would be similar to wearing suspenders that are too short and therefore being real uncomfortable by the end of the day...only, in this case, there is no way to adjust the length of his "suspenders"....am I right, SOONER???

pfrank · Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 5:23 am Post subject:

Makes sense to me...with arms further out, the instrument seems heavier (that's why backpacks are best closer to the body, it's elementary physics) and this could lead to tension and more pressure.

I played a 40B at Rayburns a few weeks ago--what a Pretty hunk o brass--and was surprised at how heavy (thick brass) and unresponsive it was compared to both modern horns and some antiques. Not that that's a bad thing: I think of the sound of the old Elington Band when they used those. It makes for a big sound, but you have to work very hard for it (as compared to a lighter horn).

Have you tried a 30s Conn Victor? That's the closest I have experienced to the blow of the 40B, and it is much shorter. It's the horn Bix played, and like with the 40B the reward of playing such a heavy thing is a big sound like Bix made. Not an easy high register, though.

I have a York Grand Rapids from the 30s that is a 462 bore, but is much more responsive than the Conn 40B. I bought it because it's design is so close to my 77 Benge that you'd think they were the same horn until you looked closely. (Same brace and bell flare and forward pointing 2nd valve slide) It plays great too, although quieter than a modern horn.

If you don't find something modern, try some other vintage instruments. Modern horns won't feel like a 40B unless you coat one with lead...Or you could learn to cope with something that plays so easily that it seems wrong.

Andy Cooper · Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:54 am Post subject:

I guess the "balanced" models like the 30's Selmers (used by Harry James) and the Olds Recording models were good if you had really long arms (that was HJ's reason). While it's been a while since I have played a 40B, I remember it to be open blowing, somewhat dark, and fairly flexible. I thought it reminded me of a "real" Chicago Benge that I once owned. If Kanstul's ML Chicago model plays like the actual ones, you might try one. (Sorry have not tried the Kanstul version.) You might also try out a Selmer K-Modified in ML bore if you can find one in good condition with a good valve alignment. I thought mine was dark and flexible (reasonably heavy). After that try a current ML French Besson, and perhaps a Schilke B1. The "Vintage" model that Bach had available a few years ago with the 6 leadpipe and 6 goldbrass bell was pretty nice - I'm not a stock Bach Strad fan - but I enjoyed playing this model and found it more open and "sweeter" than a silver plated Yamaha Shew in a side by side comparison with a variety of mouthpieces. Hope this gives you a few ideas.

Sooner · Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 1:04 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the info. If I get a chance I'll at least try out the yamaha bobby shew, and if I can find them some of those vintage models.
_________________
N.Y. Bach 31 bell S-bore (.440) 50XX, Bob Reeves 41sv-692s, Bach MV 1.5C/warburton 9 BB for legit.

Proffessional poker dealer/player (helps support my music habit) and trumpet player of the Octopi.

Now a synth junkie as well

plankowner110 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 12 Jun 2003 Posts: 3620

Sooner,
Be sure to check out the new CONN "Vintage One" trumpet. It has the classic Conn design and the valves are closer to the mouthpiece. Since you are a proud Conn 40B owner, I think you will LOVE the Conn 1B "Vintage One." It is an absolutely great-looking and great-playing premium trumpet.

I played a CONN 38B for many years and the valve cluster was farther out than other trumpets but this never caused any problems for me.