View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
Benge.nut Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 695
|
Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:49 pm Post subject: Jazz/classical/all-around |
|
|
When I hear people say "this is a jazz horn" or "that horn blends or doesn't blend well in sections" or "this is a lead horn" I get kind of baffled.
I've seen players play classical on light weight horns, medium bores, and seen lead players play heavy Harrelson, Monette, large bore Bachs and rotory trumpets.
I don't believe that horns can be pigeonholed into categories like they are among some players. Mouthpiece choice can have some effect on sound, but I think it's also a minimum to the listener.
My point is especially relevant to players of years gone by, before every classical player only played Bach or Yamaha equivalents of Bach trumpets. Same with mouthpieces. Guys played on everything, not just variations of Bach 1 sizes.
You can play classical or chamber music on a Calicchio, Schilke or a Benge and can play jazz and lead on a Yamaha Chicago or a Bach Standard weight.
Am I dead wrong? Or are you in agreement? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2627
|
Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:03 pm Post subject: Re: Jazz/classical/all-around |
|
|
Benge.nut wrote: | You can play classical or chamber music on a Calicchio, Schilke or a Benge and can play jazz and lead on a Yamaha Chicago or a Bach Standard weight.
Am I dead wrong? Or are you in agreement? |
I'd be curious to see a blind test where someone snuck a completely different horn with supposedly different characteristics while using their same "legit" mp into a major symphonic section to see if the conductor - or anyone else - notices. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Benge.nut Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 695
|
Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:30 pm Post subject: Re: Jazz/classical/all-around |
|
|
Robert P wrote: | Benge.nut wrote: | You can play classical or chamber music on a Calicchio, Schilke or a Benge and can play jazz and lead on a Yamaha Chicago or a Bach Standard weight.
Am I dead wrong? Or are you in agreement? |
I'd be curious to see a blind test where someone snuck a completely different horn with supposedly different characteristics while using their same "legit" mp into a major symphonic section to see if the conductor - or anyone else - notices. |
Same. I'd also like to see a guy in a classical setting bring in a 10.5C or a shallower mouthpiece instead of their 1C and see if anybody notices. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
HornnOOb Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Jun 2010 Posts: 897 Location: East of the Sun & West of the Moon
|
Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
My take is that it has a lot to do (maybe mostly to do) with the MP. The MP can affect the entire range from ultra bright to dark and mellow. I also think that there could be a few horns out there that just won't blend well due to their design of very thin brass - like a dedicated lead trumpet. But most horns can blend given the choice of MP's. _________________ I rode in on a horse and can't seem to get out of L.A.
Severinsen Destino 3*
1971 Getzen Eterna 900S Severinsen Model
1984 Getzen Eterna 896 Flugelhorn
1951 Olds Special Cornet
Denis Wick 1C Heavytop
Getzen Flugel 3C |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Benge.nut Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 695
|
Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
HornnOOb wrote: | - like a dedicated lead trumpet. . |
This is a good example of my post. What exactly is a "dedicated lead trumpet"?
Thin brass? Lightweight horns?? Like a Benge or Schilke?
Those were used from coast to coast in classical orchestras by scores of players. So I wouldn't call those horns only "dedicated lead trumpets"
See my point? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
p76 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 1072 Location: The Golden City of OZ
|
Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The mpc has the most effect on a horns sound/projection/timbre. The bell flare has an effect as well.
Any horn can be made to do what you want, with an appropriate mpc. However, would I rather play commercial charts on my Kanstul 1001 vs. my Selmer Radial?
Yes.
Cheers,
Roger _________________ Bb - Selmer Radial, Yamaha YTR634, Kanstul 1001, Kanstul 700.
C - Yamaha 641.
Cornet - Olds Ambassador A6T, Besson 723, Olds Ambassador Long.
Flugel - Kanstul 1525
Mpc. - ACB 3CS, ACB 3ES, Curry 3BBC, Kanstul FB Flugel |
|
Back to top |
|
|
iiipopes Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2015 Posts: 566
|
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
My Dad had one trumpet: an early '50's King Super 20 S2. He played it for everything with the same mouthpiece, adjusting his approach to the horn for the ensemble, from the local symphony, to pit orchestras, to jazz band/big band, to concert band.
I played his trumpet after he died until it was stolen from me. A couple of years ago I finally found a replacement I liked - a mid-70's King Super 20 S2, which blows almost exactly like his did. It is just a hair heavier. I don't play any orchestra gigs, but I have also used it for everything I do play, including concert band, jazz band, party band. I do confess to changing mouthpieces as posted above: 3C/76 for concert band; Yammy Shew Jazz for, yes, jazz band/big band; 7D for party band horn section. _________________ King Super 20 Trumpet; Sov 921 Cornet
Bach cornet modded to be a 181L clone
Couesnon Flugelhorn and C trumpet |
|
Back to top |
|
|
tpter1 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Jun 2004 Posts: 1194
|
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:45 am Post subject: Re: Jazz/classical/all-around |
|
|
Benge.nut wrote: |
...
You can play classical or chamber music on a Calicchio, Schilke or a Benge and can play jazz and lead on a Yamaha Chicago or a Bach Standard weight.
|
I'm sure you can. You can also use a golf club to hammer in a nail. But not as effectively. _________________ -Glenn Roberts
"Character is the backbone of human culture, and music is the flowering of human character". -Confucious |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Benge.nut Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 695
|
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:07 am Post subject: Re: Jazz/classical/all-around |
|
|
tpter1 wrote: | Benge.nut wrote: |
...
You can play classical or chamber music on a Calicchio, Schilke or a Benge and can play jazz and lead on a Yamaha Chicago or a Bach Standard weight.
|
I'm sure you can. You can also use a golf club to hammer in a nail. But not as effectively. |
I just find it interesting that so many people think using Schilke or Bnege trumpets in a classical setting is ineffective.
Years ago guys from NYC, Chicago to LA orchestras all used Schilke and Benge, as well as Bach and others, and some full sections were all Benge artists, Bud Herseth played most of his career on a B3 Bb Schilke.
We're all those guys using golf clubs instead of hammers? Or I just wonder why opinions have changed so much over the years and become so absolute? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Manuel de los Campos Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 672 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
|
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:35 am Post subject: Re: Jazz/classical/all-around |
|
|
Benge.nut wrote: | I just wonder why opinions have changed so much over the years and become so absolute? |
When I studied on the conservatory (1982) we all played a Bach 180-37. C trumpet had to a Schilke one. But on the Amsterdam conservatory every student played a Holton C trumpet as was the Holton C trumpet advocated by the teacher that time.
There where whispers that this teacher was highly involved by that choice if you know what I mean.
A few years later everybody played a Vincent Bach made C trumpet and you could find second hand Holton C trumpets for cheap...
I could not afford to buy a new C trumpet than, I found an old Antoine Courtois Delmotte. I liked her a lot, she never let me down and actually it didn't matter, I never got complains.
I had a classical gig those days and the principal player played a Bb Getzen Eterna, the so called 'commercial' horn. Hell this guy could let that Eterna sing!
Again it didn't matter.
I think it is a matter of fashion or commercial involvement of the orchestral powers that be, good trumpetplayers can perform on whatever quality brand _________________ Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9193 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
|
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
There are three saying I think apply. One is, "the body follows the mind", which would imply the first premise about using diverse equipment.
The second saying is that, "You can get to California in a Volkswagen beetle or in a BMW. How would you rather get there?"
In Forest Gump, he says, " I don't know if we each have a destiny, or if we're all just floating around accidental-like on a breeze, but I think . . . maybe it's both."
In other words for most of our playing situations, play what works best and most easily FOR YOU. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"Well, even if I could play like Wynton, I wouldn't play like Wynton." Chet Baker
Adams A-9 Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Getzen Capri Cornet (for sale). |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|