View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
BBB1976 Veteran Member
Joined: 30 May 2016 Posts: 134
|
Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 8:04 am Post subject: Systematic approach. Extreme or not? |
|
|
A friend of mine, who has actually got a job as principal trumpet in a major symphony orchestra, here in England, says he couldn't play A NOTE after doing this book course for 1 year!! Is it a bit extreme or not?
Sincerely. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Grits Burgh Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Oct 2015 Posts: 805 Location: South Carolina
|
Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
It is based on the teachings of Herbert L. Clarke. It relies very heavily on all of the classics: Clarke, Arban, St. Jacome, etc. That doesn't sound extreme to me.
I've been working out of the book since last November. I've seen improvement in my tone, endurance and range. Unfortunately, I have been travelling and have had a couple of health setbacks and so have lost about a month's practice time here recently, but I am anxious to get back to practicing and continuing the journey.
It is hard to say what went on with your friend. Chops can be both problematic and mysterious.
I am a novice and am just learning, but I have a theory. There are different embouchures and there are different approaches to playing the trumpet. Some methods work well for some players, but not for others. I think that the CG SATDP works well for people who don't over analyze what is going on with their mechanics and just let the exercises develop technique. I suspect that it would not be as useful for players who have some idiosyncrasies that that they are not willing to part with. But, it is hard for me to see how playing exercises from Clarke, Arban, etc. could do any damage.
I am interested in reading the comments of people who, unlike me, know what they are talking about.
Regards,
Grits _________________ Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1102 Location: Sacramento, Ca
|
Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
Presupposing your friend was already able to play when he started using the book...
Your friend's approach to it seems extreme. When he started having trouble, he should have sought out someone who could make sure he was doing it right or at least put it down and gone back to his normal routine that had previously worked.
In all seriousness, if he was truly unable to play a note after using the method for a year, why didn't he stop when he noticed degradation in his playing? One doesn't go from being able to play to destroyed overnight with zero indication that it is on the way.
Now, is there anything missing from your post? How much did he practice it per day? Did he do it in addition to his other routines and tax out his chops? Did he have a teacher?
While I haven't gone through the book myself, I have read it and looked at what it covers. It is not extreme, really. It is disciplined, structured. Done right (which, I imagine, means with a teacher) it seems it would produce some monster players. _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
|
Back to top |
|
|
cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
|
Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
The very most a book can provide is a map for how to get where you want to go. But even with the best map, some folks manage to walk off a cliff.
Any serious player should work with an appropriately high caliber teacher who can monitor them and their progress and make real-time adjustments to keep the student from getting off course. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Benge.nut Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 695
|
Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:44 am Post subject: Re: Systematic approach. Extreme or not? |
|
|
BBB1976 wrote: | A friend of mine, who has actually got a job as principal trumpet in a major symphony orchestra, here in England, says he couldn't play A NOTE after doing this book course for 1 year!! Is it a bit extreme or not?
Sincerely. |
Extreme, and doubtful.
I've heard folklore and legend about people saying their chops have been destroyed, or they knew a guy that ruined his chops, or wasn't able to play a note for years because of this or that.
Personally I don't think any of that is possible with out a serious injury like a damaging cut, or muscle damage or nerve damage.
Short of that, I say there's a lot of BS out there, especially amongst trumpet players. I don't think you can practice or play yourself into damaging detrimental oblivion. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
BBB1976 Veteran Member
Joined: 30 May 2016 Posts: 134
|
Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 10:00 am Post subject: Systematic approach. Extreme or not? |
|
|
Take it from me, yes you can! This book was extreme for me. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
|
Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 10:06 am Post subject: Re: Systematic approach. Extreme or not? |
|
|
BBB1976 wrote: | Take it from me, yes you can! This book was extreme for me. |
If a student starts having major issues with this (or any other approach), I'd stop and either change approaches or find a teacher qualified to instruct in that method. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
|
Back to top |
|
|
BBB1976 Veteran Member
Joined: 30 May 2016 Posts: 134
|
Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 10:23 am Post subject: Systematic approach. Extreme or not? |
|
|
Yes I agree. I can only speak of how I found CG myself. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Pops Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Sep 2002 Posts: 2039 Location: Dallas (Grand Prairie), Texas
|
Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 10:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
No book will hurt you.
It is the lack of paying attention during practice that hurts them.
Some books are designed to push the envelope and that is needed. However; the player has a brain and is supposed to use it.
We can NEVER just mindlessly practice and NOT pay attention to what happens to our playing. He should have known the 1st day things went downhill and made adjustments.
We often need to do a little less or rest a little more or do warm downs like didgeridoo, tuba mouthpiece...
Trumpet playing is VERY mental and if you don't use the brain then you won't survive.
That said there are faster ways to build range because it is about starting notes more than holding out the note. WE need to start the note thousands of times to get the knack of playing it. THEN we hold the note to get more control. Then we play it in songs. _________________ Clint 'Pops' McLaughlin
You can always Google me.
50 years Teaching. Teaching and writing trumpet books is ALL I do.
7,000 pages of free music. Trumpet Books, Skype Lessons: www.BbTrumpet.com |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Matt Graves Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2001 Posts: 836 Location: Brooklyn NY
|
Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 10:32 am Post subject: Systematic approach. Extreme or not? |
|
|
Systematic Approach is Systematic, not extreme.
There are MANY likely wrong things that trumpet players do when they practice with Systematic Approach WITHOUT the guidance of a teacher who studied with Claude Gordon.
One:
They don't bother reading and putting into practice Claude's written instructions consistently.
Two:
They practice the pedal notes with an embouchure different from the setting they use in the mid to low register.
Three:
They practice the pedal notes BLASSTISSIMO!!!
Four:
They practice notes above the staff with an embouchure different from the setting they use in the mid to low register.
Five:
They practice the notes above the staff BLASSTISSIMO!!!
Six:
They practice ONLY the Part I and Part II portions of each lesson.
Seven:
They do not rest properly within their daily practice routine.
Eight:
They blame the book for their own lack of discipline and lack of application of practical wisdom.
Nine:
They simultaneously practice a system of exercises built on a pedagogical approach in opposition to the Gordon Approach.
Ten:
They don't practice consistently and daily. _________________ For Online Lessons via Live Video, email
me at matthewjgraves@gmail.com
Author of Fundamental Flexibility Studies
Claude Gordon Certified Teacher
BAC Custom Dream Trumpet |
|
Back to top |
|
|
BBB1976 Veteran Member
Joined: 30 May 2016 Posts: 134
|
Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 10:35 am Post subject: Systematic approach. Extreme or not? |
|
|
Hi Pops. Yes what you say about range, I find Clarke is useful for that. Indeed, being able to do it gently and adding power later.
All the best. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
homebilly Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2010 Posts: 2198 Location: Venice, CA & Paris, France
|
Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 10:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
add to that list
they probably don't rest as much as they play _________________ ron meza (deadbeat jazz musician) & (TH 5 post ghost neighborhood watch ringleader)
waiting for Fed-Ex to deliver a $50 trumpet to my door. shipping was prepaid by seller of course!
http://ronmeza.com
http://highdefinitionbigband.com |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Matt Graves Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2001 Posts: 836 Location: Brooklyn NY
|
Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 10:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
homebilly:
See "Seven" on my list. _________________ For Online Lessons via Live Video, email
me at matthewjgraves@gmail.com
Author of Fundamental Flexibility Studies
Claude Gordon Certified Teacher
BAC Custom Dream Trumpet |
|
Back to top |
|
|
BBB1976 Veteran Member
Joined: 30 May 2016 Posts: 134
|
Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 10:56 am Post subject: Systematic approach. Extreme or not? |
|
|
To Matt Graves: yea sure.....I can only speak for myself having studied at The Royal College of Music, London, and been a pro. Your points are all valid. However, in my experience teachers who preach this book basically say its their way or the highway! After all, there are many ways to be a good player. Also, different folks have different needs. Indeed, I found CG very extreme personally. I find other books encourage better habits. Lots of other pros don't even go near this book. I find Allen Vizzutti books more accessible and more musical.
Cheaper in price as well!! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Matt Graves Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2001 Posts: 836 Location: Brooklyn NY
|
Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 12:23 pm Post subject: Systematic approach. Extreme or not? |
|
|
BBB1976:
To respond in Claude's own words, "There is no 'Gordon Method'."
The proper one word description is eclectic.
As for your remarks, "there are many ways to be a good player...different folks have different needs," Gordon tailored very reasonable practice routines for his students from all the time-tested, classic, well worn sources.
Claude passed down what he learned from Herbert L. Clarke and Louis Maggio.
Most teachers write out custom exercises for their students. Claude got tired of having to do that. That is part of how his books began.
Anyway, thank you kindly for your, "Your points are all valid."
Happy Playing. _________________ For Online Lessons via Live Video, email
me at matthewjgraves@gmail.com
Author of Fundamental Flexibility Studies
Claude Gordon Certified Teacher
BAC Custom Dream Trumpet |
|
Back to top |
|
|
cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
|
Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 12:58 pm Post subject: Re: Systematic approach. Extreme or not? |
|
|
BBB1976 wrote: | To Matt Graves: yea sure.....I can only speak for myself having studied at The Royal College of Music, London, and been a pro. Your points are all valid. However, in my experience teachers who preach this book basically say its their way or the highway! After all, there are many ways to be a good player. Also, different folks have different needs. Indeed, I found CG very extreme personally. I find other books encourage better habits. Lots of other pros don't even go near this book. I find Allen Vizzutti books more accessible and more musical.
Cheaper in price as well!! |
For where I was in my comeback, long before I ever took lessons. I found the Vizzutti books a real benefit. It got me all over the horn but didn't tear me up. In retrospect, I think that used reasonably, it helps develop a good foundation in a mostly friendly way.
By contrast, Claude's books were to support players not just for a basic foundation, but for those striving for a very high level. This by definition is going to be higher impact. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
|
Back to top |
|
|
BBB1976 Veteran Member
Joined: 30 May 2016 Posts: 134
|
Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 1:02 pm Post subject: Systematic approach. Extreme or not? |
|
|
Cheers Matt Graves.
You too.
Best wishes. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
bach_again Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2005 Posts: 2481 Location: Northern Ireland
|
Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 1:33 pm Post subject: Re: Systematic approach. Extreme or not? |
|
|
BBB1976 wrote: | A friend of mine, who has actually got a job as principal trumpet in a major symphony orchestra, here in England, says he couldn't play A NOTE after doing this book course for 1 year!! Is it a bit extreme or not?
Sincerely. |
I can well believe that. _________________ Maestro Arturo Sandoval on Barkley Microphones!
https://youtu.be/iLVMRvw5RRk
Michael Barkley Quartet - Portals:
https://michaelbarkley.bandcamp.com/album/portals
The best movie trumpet solo?
https://youtu.be/OnCnTA6toMU |
|
Back to top |
|
|
cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
|
Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 1:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
My teacher was a Gordon student and it a major advocate for that approach. But he also studied with many other teachers, most notably Jimmy Stamp. At one point in my lessons, he quipped that his approach to teaching was eclectic, tailored to each student's needs, but that in general. it was a somewhat lower impact version of what he learned from Claude. That tacitly acknowledges that he considered Claude's approach high impact. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
|
Back to top |
|
|
John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
|
Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 2:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I am sure the OP's colleague's claims are if not dubious, a very gross exaggeration. I've never met a person who would be so foolish as to stick with a book a full year, until it eventually caused him not to be able to play "a single note". I mean, for gosh sake, was the guy able to play only perhaps one note the day before he finished the book?!?! Gimme a break...
Everything Matt said (and Ron's comment about resting as much as you play during the individual exercises which is one of the things Matt meant when he wrote his number Seven above) is as good as it gets. Pops and others wrote good stuff, too.
I'll add this: Claude wrote Systematic Approach fairly early in his career as a teacher. I think he did over-do it with how quickly the daily routine built up in the book. And he clearly realized this, too, as over the years, with experience, he slowed down how quickly he built up the routines of his personal students.
If one practices the SA book exactly as written and stays on each lesson for only one week (as the book instructs) most players will be over-practicing each day by the time they reach around Lesson 12 or so in the book. Those with sense will realize this and modify the routine or stay on lessons for more than one week. Others will (and do) crash and burn with the book.
The material and the progression in the book, including the assignments from the other books SA makes use of are brilliant and to this day have not been outdone by any other book. All that needs to be done to ensure success with the book is to stay on each Lesson for at least two weeks so it doesn't build up too quickly.
The best approach if one desires to use this method (that Claude claimed wasn't a method) though is to study personally with one of us who studied for years with Claude and have also learned from our own experiences as long-term pro players. This way, one gets assigned a personalized daily routine every few weeks based on exactly where that person is with his playing, and what particular areas of his playing he wants most to develop.
Best wishes,
John Mohan _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|