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1st valve slide saddle/no saddle


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trumpet.trader
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:05 am    Post subject: 1st valve slide saddle/no saddle Reply with quote

Is there any science or reasoning or playability factors behind NOT having a hook, ring, or trigger on the 1st valve slide?

Some periods of Bach trumpets had hooks and looks like the Mt Vernons had none, some Bessons and Benges have them, some don't, some Getzens do, some don't. And I'm sure there are other examples.

If they were an option I'd assume there is some reason why a player may NOT have wanted an adjustment option on their trumpet right? I just never knew what that reasoning was about.

Any ideas?


Last edited by trumpet.trader on Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think having a saddle/trigger/ring on the first slide came into popularity around maybe the late '60's?

Brad
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The concept of moveable slides developed as the Bb trumpet design evolved. In the case of Benge, the early valve blocks were made with two "male" stubs coming out of the 1st valve case. These had "female" tubes soldered to them to accept a slide with two male tubes. There was no ring or saddle unless ordered. The saddle that was used was mounted to a square-section rod that wrapped around and was mounted to the slide crook. One could also have a lever installed that extended the slide. Later the "under-over" configuration was adopted that made the upper slide leg an outer tube where a saddle could be mounted.

Players liked this arrangement. It allowed for better intonation on certain notes. Trumpets could be constructed to play with more definite note slotting, because compensation for out-of-tune notes could be handled mechanically instead of with the embouchure.

Today, I know of very few trumpets that do not come with any way to extend the first valve slide. The Callet Sima is one and the Martin-like Kanstul 1603 (ne้ 1603+) Handcraft is another.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
I think having a saddle/trigger/ring on the first slide came into popularity around maybe the late '60's?

Brad


It was earlier. Benge made the change in the 1950s. Bach started even before that, I believe.
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Richard A
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:51 am    Post subject: First Valve Saddle/Hook Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
Brad361 wrote:
I think having a saddle/trigger/ring on the first slide came into popularity around maybe the late '60's?

Brad


It was earlier. Benge made the change in the 1950s. Bach started even before that, I believe.


It was an option when I got my Bach 37 in 1967. $5 extra, as I recall.
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jojocat
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love getting a 1st saddle/trigger cause I use both 1st and 3rd slide adjustment for the low D and Db/C#. My left hand and fingers are very stiff so it destabilize the grip.

No need to push the 3rd slide that far so the horn remains more stable in my hands. I learned this trick by looking at Steve Dillard. He does the same thing.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are passages where throwing the 3rd slide is difficult and throwing the 1st is easier. Also being able to move the 1st slide allows you more options for adjusting the sharp notes above the staff, particularly A.
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VetPsychWars
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Part of checking a new-to-you horn is intonation tendencies. If your trumpet has no adjustment on the first valve... it may not need it.

Older Conns and Bueschers, for example, use a different method to achieve good intonation than Vincent Bach did, including wide slots.

Regardless of how your horn was set up, it's a good idea to spend some time with a tuner to see which notes might need more adjustment or even an alternate fingering.

If you find out that the low notes and flat and the high notes are sharp, you have the wrong mouthpiece for that horn. I suppose you could have sharp low notes and flat high notes, but I've never seen it.

Tom
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trumpet.trader
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand the reasons why somebody would want to adjust the 1st valve slide quickly with a saddle or trigger.

What I was wondering though, is if it were an option why some players would opt for not having the saddle or trigger. Like on the CG Selmer or Benge trumpets. They could have put a trigger on his horns and that was an option at that point, but it seems the ones Claude picked out for himself or his students never had a trigger or saddle. I wonder why he chose that option.
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djpearlman
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't use first valve saddles or triggers, mainly because my hands are small and it improves my grip to have the first valve casing unobstructed. Wynton Marsalis does not use one either - it looks like it would just be in the way of the grips he has used over recent years.
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Norman
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually if the horn is well manufactured and yo want to play where the horn resonates better you need to adjust all combinations of 2 or 3 valves. The reason is explained in the first part of the article below:

http://www.tonalsoft.com/monzo/trumpet/trumpet-intonation.aspx

Many people just don't care and prefer to lip down the notes, and you may be perfectly fine with that, but to me it makes no sense not to have the ring on the first valve slide. At least you have a choice...
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpet.trader wrote:
I understand the reasons why somebody would want to adjust the 1st valve slide quickly with a saddle or trigger.

What I was wondering though, is if it were an option why some players would opt for not having the saddle or trigger. Like on the CG Selmer or Benge trumpets. They could have put a trigger on his horns and that was an option at that point, but it seems the ones Claude picked out for himself or his students never had a trigger or saddle. I wonder why he chose that option.


I can answer that one! Claude personally did not like the thumb throw as his thumb was fairly wide and would get hung up in the thumb throw. The thumb throws on Benges are narrower than those on Bachs and I've often wondered if his opinion would have been different if he had a horn with a wider throw like the Bachs have.

Typically CG Benges came with the throw as a stock item. But they could be ordered without it, and that is how Claude would order them for his students who bought the horn through him (which meant the horn was also play-tested by him). The other thing he specified on his and his students' horns were brass valve guides in place of the nylon ones Benge started using at some point. Claude felt the brass ones helped increase the resonance of the horn.

Interestingly, when the CG Selmer was designed, Claude had Bach/Selmer make the 1st Valve Slide with two male tubes instead of the top female / bottom male tube setup. Though we never discussed it, I think he did this with a rather cantankerous attitude as it seems to me the only reason to do the tubes this way was would be to increase the difficulty of installing a thumb throw on the horns (though a trigger was still an easy option for those that wanted one).

The CG Benge I bought through Claude in 1980 has no thumb throw, but the other three Benges I own or have owned do have the throw. I can play either style but I do prefer the thumb throw as it just allows more options for intonation rectification (I think I just created a catchy phrase).

Cheers,

John Mohan
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dershem
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
I think having a saddle/trigger/ring on the first slide came into popularity around maybe the late '60's?

Brad


I started using mine when I was in my 30's.
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delano
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In fact the first slide saddle is a sophisticated alternative for the with the Chinese TSO's supplied white gloves.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
...intonation rectification...


Now that's some fancy wording. Does it also come with a belt that you can wear with lederhosen?...


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scottfsmith
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How many people use the first slide saddle? I didn't have a saddle until a few months ago but I am starting to use it a bit on E's on the bottom line of the staff. Its hard to have my hands set to do either 1st or 3rd valve adjustments though, and I may just decide to go back to lipping those E's down.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dershem wrote:
Brad361 wrote:
I think having a saddle/trigger/ring on the first slide came into popularity around maybe the late '60's?

Brad


I started using mine when I was in my 30's.

Me too. My teacher used the 1st slide a lot and when I would play unison passages with him I began to see the utility of it. After having done it for a few years I can now use either slide without thinking about it much.

Another thing to think about. If you consciously avoid pulling on the right pinky hook, throwing the 3rd slide can upset the amount of pressure on your lips. I think that throwing the 1st slide makes it easier to keep a light grip and not upset the embouchure.
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Norman
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:
dershem wrote:
Brad361 wrote:
I think having a saddle/trigger/ring on the first slide came into popularity around maybe the late '60's?

Brad


I started using mine when I was in my 30's.

Me too. My teacher used the 1st slide a lot and when I would play unison passages with him I began to see the utility of it. After having done it for a few years I can now use either slide without thinking about it much.

Another thing to think about. If you consciously avoid pulling on the right pinky hook, throwing the 3rd slide can upset the amount of pressure on your lips. I think that throwing the 1st slide makes it easier to keep a light grip and not upset the embouchure.


This is indeed true! When my teacher started telling me to use both slides I realized that I could not do it because I was clutching the horn too hard. I realized how much excessive pressure and tension I was using. This was some time after he suggested me not to use the pinky hook as well (unless you need it to change a mute or turn page). So it's a good test for technique as well.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:30 am    Post subject: 1st valve slide saddle/no saddle Reply with quote

Waste of metal...NEVER have used it!!!

Butch
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All the years playing my Holton ST-302 MF horn I never missed having an adjustable 1st slide. Some years later playing a Bach Strad with a 1st slide saddle I feel pretty confident that having the adjustable 1st slide makes it easier for me to play better. I think it's highly unlikely that I'd buy another Bb or C without an adjustable 1st slide.
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