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RandyTX Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Posts: 5304 Location: Central Texas
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Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:37 am Post subject: ethics of selling public domain music ... |
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I won't name names, but I suspect many of you probably got the same marketing email today that I did.
Contained within it are advertisements for several "long out of print" pieces of music for trumpet, in PDF format.
Several of these are freely available right now on IMSLP. Selling them to people that may not be aware of it seems a little... dodgy to me.
I may get flamed for this, but I just don't think it's cool. _________________ "Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away." |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5706 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:57 am Post subject: |
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Caveat emptor. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:07 am Post subject: |
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If the buyer is unaware that it's available elsewhere for free, are they not entitled to appreciate that someone is making it available for purchase?
Is there much difference between selling something that's available for free elsewhere and selling something for a higher price than it's available elsewhere?
In either case, it's down to the buyer to find the best price (including free of charge) surely? |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9193 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:15 am Post subject: |
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Personal opinion naturally, but I've never believed it completely that "Let the buyer beware" absolved the rest of us who might know better, from sharing the information. Sometimes, it's through no fault of your own that you "don't know what you don't know".
I will say, though, that in this particular case that there may be advantages to you in graphics, binding or other more contemporary offering of the materials that work to your advantage. In that case, it completely justifies offering the materials commercially. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"Well, even if I could play like Wynton, I wouldn't play like Wynton." Chet Baker
Adams A-9 Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Getzen Capri Cornet (for sale). |
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RandyTX Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Posts: 5304 Location: Central Texas
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Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:19 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | I will say, though, that in this particular case that there may be advantages to you in graphics, binding or other more contemporary offering of the materials that you prefer. |
That's possible, although with this company in the past, purchases have been nothing more than electronic scans of old documents, some of which included hand-written manuscripts that are very hard to read.
If it is actually fresh engravings, I have no real problem with re-publishing public domain material in an easier to read format, but if it's just taking existing free materials, that's where I have a problem.
I'm not claiming illegal, mind you. IANAL and don't play one on the internet. I just think it's... suspect. _________________ "Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away." |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:19 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | Personal opinion naturally, but I've never believed it completely that "Let the buyer beware" absolved the rest of us who might know better, from sharing the information. Sometimes, it's through no fault of your own that you "don't know what you don't know". |
Absolutely - I see nothing wrong with someone making the music available for a price...
And I see nothing whatsoever wrong with the OP pointing out that it is (legally) available elsewhere for free. |
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snichols Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Posts: 586 Location: Virginia
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Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:24 am Post subject: |
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TKSop wrote: | If the buyer is unaware that it's available elsewhere for free, are they not entitled to appreciate that someone is making it available for purchase?
Is there much difference between selling something that's available for free elsewhere and selling something for a higher price than it's available elsewhere?
In either case, it's down to the buyer to find the best price (including free of charge) surely? |
I think it depends on what this person is actually selling. If they are selling their own edition, then, yes, that should be fine to do. Like taking an old, difficult to read score and then inputting it into notation software and making it legible and comprehensible.
But if the person is taking someone else's PDF edition and selling it as their own, that's a problem. |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5706 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:55 am Post subject: |
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snichols wrote: | TKSop wrote: | If the buyer is unaware that it's available elsewhere for free, are they not entitled to appreciate that someone is making it available for purchase?
Is there much difference between selling something that's available for free elsewhere and selling something for a higher price than it's available elsewhere?
In either case, it's down to the buyer to find the best price (including free of charge) surely? |
I think it depends on what this person is actually selling. If they are selling their own edition, then, yes, that should be fine to do. Like taking an old, difficult to read score and then inputting it into notation software and making it legible and comprehensible.
But if the person is taking someone else's PDF edition and selling it as their own, that's a problem. |
So how about this scenario for comparison:
A person goes out into public lands (public domain) where they know there are a bunch of ripe, wild berries, and they pick a whole bunch of them and put them into little baskets and containers, then they set up a roadside stand to sell them for profit.
Is that any different? The unknowing buyers have the same ability to go and get those berries themselves for free, but the berry seller made it convenient for them, and so the buyers freely spend their money because it seems like the most convenient thing to do if they want those berries.
Likewise with the PDF, regardless of who may have created it, once it's out in the public for free, there is little to prevent someone from grabbing it up, and setting up shop to try to sell for a profit.
I said it simply in my first post - caveat emptor. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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Jay Lichtmann Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Apr 2005 Posts: 659 Location: Avon, CT
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Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:09 am Post subject: |
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Over the years I have run across several people who have poached my site and are selling the very same sheet music that I offer for free. On my site I clearly states "All sheet music may be freely distributed without restriction. This music may not be resold, it must remain free for all."
I find this practice of ripping people off and taking the work of others to enrich yourself morally reprehensible.
You see nothing wrong with this practice TKSop? Your mother obviously didn't bring you up very well. I feel sorry for you. _________________ In his retirement he had become that most dreaded of former athletes, the one who always remembered how much harder it was in his day "when ships were made of wood and men were made of steel."
Samuel Abt on Eddy Merx |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:23 am Post subject: |
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If they're ripping off your exact work and selling it, that's different (especially if you're stipulating that it be shared and not sold).
If it happens to be the same notes but typeset differently and as part of a collection of pieces or whatever then that's different, especially if it's s known tune that's out of copyright.
If OP is talking about the former it's not cool - if it's the latter there's value added and I understand it being charged for. |
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RandyTX Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Posts: 5304 Location: Central Texas
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Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:29 am Post subject: |
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No screen shots of the finished product I was referring to *this* time were included in the marketing materials. If you look carefully, you'll notice the vendor in question almost never shows any example images from the PDFs you are invited to buy.
However, I have bought from them in the past, and the PDF files contained nothing but grainy, hard to read scans from very old paper copies of public domain materials.
There was no new engraving, or even cleaning up of artifacts on the scan. Just selling PD materials for a rather high price, considering the source material cost nothing to produce. _________________ "Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away." |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9193 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:47 am Post subject: |
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Although I stand by what I said about the "caveat emptor" blaming, I should add to this whole subject that most internet users, by now, should be very conversant with google (or other search engines) and it should be no skin off of anybody's nose to google the work in question in question and the phrase "pdf download".
BTW - Quote: | Your mother obviously didn't bring you up very well. I feel sorry for you. |
I think we can avoid this type of personal slur here, unless really called for, no? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"Well, even if I could play like Wynton, I wouldn't play like Wynton." Chet Baker
Adams A-9 Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Getzen Capri Cornet (for sale).
Last edited by kehaulani on Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:08 am; edited 1 time in total |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:02 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: |
BTW - Quote: | Your mother obviously didn't bring you up very well. I feel sorry for you. |
I think we can avoid this type of personal slur here, unless really called for no? |
I don't see any point engaging with it - intolerance of others personal politics like this can only ever lead to arguments. |
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Jay Lichtmann Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Apr 2005 Posts: 659 Location: Avon, CT
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Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:59 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: |
BTW - Quote: | Your mother obviously didn't bring you up very well. I feel sorry for you. |
I think we can avoid this type of personal slur here, unless really called for no? |
Boy...mighty thin skinned aren't we? _________________ In his retirement he had become that most dreaded of former athletes, the one who always remembered how much harder it was in his day "when ships were made of wood and men were made of steel."
Samuel Abt on Eddy Merx |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:02 am Post subject: |
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It's ironic that by having the nerve to say it, it becomes true of yourself.
I got a mild chuckle out of it for that reason alone, I'm not going to make a big deal of it lol |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9193 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:08 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | Boy...mighty thin skinned aren't we? |
Not at all. Just polite. Problem with that? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"Well, even if I could play like Wynton, I wouldn't play like Wynton." Chet Baker
Adams A-9 Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Getzen Capri Cornet (for sale). |
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R Walliczek Regular Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2009 Posts: 24 Location: Delaware
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Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:08 am Post subject: If it's not yours, don't touch it |
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Jay Lichtmann wrote: | Over the years I have run across several people who have poached my site and are selling the very same sheet music that I offer for free. On my site I clearly states "All sheet music may be freely distributed without restriction. This music may not be resold, it must remain free for all."
I find this practice of ripping people off and taking the work of others to enrich yourself morally reprehensible.
You see nothing wrong with this practice TKSop? Your mother obviously didn't bring you up very well. I feel sorry for you. |
1. Skimming web sites is just fine. Content must be used as stipulated or only privately.
2. You did not say that you were the author of these works. If your own work is being stolen and sold -- if you own the copyright to this work -- then hire a copyright attorney to sue or demand cessation of the illegal activity.
I offer my own work for free on my own web site on my rented dedicated server. I did the work of composing, engraving, performing and recording, setting up the dedicated server, designing and crafting the web site, writing the terms of use and all the content on the web site, and publishing my own works there -- all for free use. I invest thousands of dollars with no return on my investment except the enhancement of the overall music community. For someone to take what I gave them for free and attempt to sell it to others is like a person who is taught by God then turning around and attempting to sell the information to others. "Freely you have received. Freely give."
https://www.blazingmusic.net/
In the event that I make public or promote someone else's work, that is free publicity and should be accepted in lieu of paying me for my marketing work. Ergo, if you can get free publicity for your work, then accept it. If someone else is making a profit from your work, then decide to accept it or reject it. If someone else is making a profit from that which you received for free, then let the recipient know that it is available for free. If you receive something for free, do not attempt to sell it to others.
Mr. Lichtmann: It would please me to list your works on my blazingmusic.net web site. Let me know if you are interested in the free publicity. |
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