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Cornet Sound like Bach Trumpet 190S43?



 
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DNMH
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:47 pm    Post subject: Cornet Sound like Bach Trumpet 190S43? Reply with quote

Is there a cornet that sounds like the Bach 190S43 trumpet?
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delano
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you serious?
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Cornet Sound like Bach Trumpet 190S43? Reply with quote

DNMH wrote:
Is there a cornet that sounds like the Bach 190S43 trumpet?

Why would you want such a thing?

No offense to the 190S43, but it's a trumpet. If you want to sound like that, just get one - it's pretty simple.

I suppose if you really want such a thing - for reasons I'm not sure I understand - you might be able to custom order a Bach 181 cornet with a 43 bell. It'll get you in the ballpark.
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brianj
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Cornet Sound like Bach Trumpet 190S43? Reply with quote

DNMH wrote:
Is there a cornet that sounds like the Bach 190S43 trumpet?


Hi

That's an unusual thing to be looking for but if you need that sound from a more compact size of instrument I suppose the best place to start would be Bach themselves.

If money isn't a problem and you can order new, maybe see if you could special order a 181 cornet with a lightweight bell. Because of the wrap of the cornet you might try a large bore to make it feel like the same blow as a trumpet.

So a 181 large bore cornet with a 43 lightweight bell - but there's a lot of guess work here and you'd have to commit to buying it before it's made is my guess.

The cheaper option would be to try to find a used long model Bach or Schilke cornet and experiment with mouthpieces and backbores to get the sound and feel you're after.

My Bach Strad 181 large bore with a 25 bell is very chameleon like depending upon what mouthpiece or backbore you use with it. It can be very trumpet like if you plug in trumpet style cups and very brass band cornet too with a deep cup.

Might be worth a try??

all the best

brian jones
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bnsd
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try some more mouthpieces. My Getzen cornet is VERY responsive to mouthpiece choice. I can sound almost like a flugel, like a traditional cornet sound, and very trumpet-like on the same horn.

I can list the 3 mouthpieces I use if you're interested.

The only thing I can't really do with my cornet is play lead in a big band. Very versatile horn
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DNMH
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:14 pm    Post subject: cornet Reply with quote

Yes. please list the mouthpieces. Thanks
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DNMH
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bnsd wrote:
Try some more mouthpieces. My Getzen cornet is VERY responsive to mouthpiece choice. I can sound almost like a flugel, like a traditional cornet sound, and very trumpet-like on the same horn.

I can list the 3 mouthpieces I use if you're interested.

The only thing I can't really do with my cornet is play lead in a big band. Very versatile horn


Yes, please list the mouthpieces.
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dr_trumpet
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bnsd wrote:
Try some more mouthpieces. My Getzen cornet is VERY responsive to mouthpiece choice. I can sound almost like a flugel, like a traditional cornet sound, and very trumpet-like on the same horn.

I can list the 3 mouthpieces I use if you're interested.

The only thing I can't really do with my cornet is play lead in a big band. Very versatile horn


I agree completely on the Getzen cornet. If I play mine with a Monette B1-5FL cup, it is dark and almost flugel-like. If I use a deep C shaped cup (Monette B1-5D or a Bach 1C with a 117 backbore), it is more cornet like yet very full sounding. With a Bach 1C (with standard 10 backbore), it is far more focused and less cornet like. With anything shallower, the tone no longer resembles a cornet at all, and frankly isn't that pleasant to hear.
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bnsd
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wick 4W is dark and round. Curry 1c is middle of the road and a wick S is bright.

Again... depends on what I'm doing but i rarely use the s
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delano
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

edited
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You need to understand that a cornet and a trumpet are not the same, they are very similar but they are not the same.

A cornet takes a cornet mouthpiece and a trumpet takes a trumpet mouthpiece there are many other differences of course including the bore size and conical/cylindrical tubing relationship, but the mouthpiece difference makes the two sound fundamentally different and they will never be the exact same so your will not get a cornet that sounds like a trumpet whatever you do, but they can be similar in tone.

Sound shaping with a mouthpiece can go a long way, I took a light and shrill peashooter trumpet into a brass band that demanded a cornet, with a cornet mouthpiece and it sounded very like a cornet. They objected to the appearance of the instrument not the tone.

You can do a great deal making the two instruments sound similar for sure. But it only goes so far.

I think you need to define what exactly you are looking for before trying to find a solution.

What exactly is wrong with a Bach 190S43 that you makes you need a cornet.

Is it size, shape, wrap, tone, timbre, response, articulation, what are your needs. If you dont define your needs and why the trumpet is not acceptable then you have no chance of finding the right solution.

The difference between the two instruments are so fundamental in my view that you need to be specific and systematic. Right now its guesswork.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:29 am    Post subject: Re: Cornet Sound like Bach Trumpet 190S43? Reply with quote

DNMH wrote:
Is there a cornet that sounds like the Bach 190S43 trumpet?

I think this may speak to what you're after.
https://www.robbstewart.com/difference-between-trumpet-and-cornet
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iiipopes
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I was custodian of my Uncle's Silvertone Cornet, I purchased two contemporary mouthpieces for it: an M2, kind of like a cross between a 3C and a 1 1/2 C, and an MC, a moderately deep funnel. Since the bell had a medium taper, I could sound bright, rather trumpet-y, with the M2 and mellow, almost brass-band mellow, with the MC.

But the above posts are spot on: due to the differences in construction, including lead pipe taper, effective bore, bell geometry, a cornet is just really not going to ever sound like a trumpet or take the place of one.

If the OP needs a cornet, then the thing to do is buy one. If he has a 190 trumpet, and wants to stay with Bach, then a 181 long model, or even a 184 shepard's crook would do.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With a shallow mouthpiece, most cornets can be made to sound like a trumpet, but will probably not have quite the carrying power of a trumpet. Some cornets are naturally much brighter-sounding than others, too. Playing a cornet with the same approach used to play a trumpet will also get you another step closer. Cornets are great for smaller venues, playing in a brass band, playing cornet parts in a concert band, etc., but in my experience, sometimes only a trumpet will do.
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bnsd
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I kind of assumed he had a cornet and wants to blend or sound more like a bach trumpet.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bnsd wrote:
I kind of assumed he had a cornet and wants to blend or sound more like a bach trumpet.

So, just get a Bach trumpet.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi DNMH

I don't personally know exactly what a Bach 190S43 trumpet sounds like, probably pretty much like a Bach 180ML in silver-plate with a 43 bell.

Owning a Bach 37, and only having briefly tried a Bach 43 once, I'm not overly familiar with the sound of the 43, but considering the differences in mouthpiece choice and more importantly the individual sound of the player, I should imagine for this purpose that having my personal idea of a Bach trumpet sound in mind would suffice.

I also own a Bach 184ML cornet with a yellow brass bell. People say that the Bach 184L has more of a brass band cornet sound, especially if it also has the gold brass bell, but I have no personal experience of the Bach 184L with or without a gold brass bell.

If I use a Bach 3C on both my Bach 37 trumpet and Bach 184ML cornet, and play the same piece with the same approach and style, I notice that the cornet has a little more inherent resistance. Regarding sound, I find that depending on my approach, my Bach 184ML even with a Bach 3C, can go from fairly brass band cornet like to sounding like a warmer richer version of my Bach 37 trumpet.

My husband is a Jazz saxophonist and has an extremely good ear. He has always said that my Bach 37 trumpet and Bach 184ML cornet sound very much the same with a 3C. This was confirmed when I listened to a home recording I had done some time ago of a baroque trumpet piece, when testing some new recording equipment. When I play, I aim for an appropriate sound and style for the repertoire, and could easily have played this particular piece on trumpet or cornet, depending on my gig schedule, which dictates on which instrument I do my home practice.

Admittedly we only have basic recording equipment, but I couldn't really make up my mind whether I was listening to a recording of me playing trumpet or my Bach cornet with a 3C. It just sounded like me playing a baroque trumpet piece, with my inherent sound influenced by my idea of an appropriate sound and approach for the piece.

I would therefore say that a Bach 184ML would get you pretty much in the ball park, and a Bach 181 (I haven't personally played one), would be even nearer.

I love my Bach 184ML, but in comparison to typical British brass band cornets such as the Besson Sovereign/Prestige and Yamaha Maestro/Xeno/Neo, at least in my opinion, I feel that the Bach 184ML has a more trumpet like sound. I personally don't feel that this is owing to the overall level of brightness, rather that the sound is fairly concentrated with quite a bit of core, in comparison to the broader more diffuse sound quality of the Besson and Yamaha cornets.

Maybe it is a factor of the amount of core, but I feel that articulations also sound more definite on my Bach 184ML cornet than my Yamaha Xeno. In fact when I joined my brass band and initially played my Bach 184ML in a section of Sovereign's, I felt that it stood out more in terms of its articulations rather than overall sound, hence my switch to the Yamaha Xeno.

I therefore feel that a Bach cornet would probably be what you are looking for. I'll probably get lynched for saying this, but in comparison to my Yamaha Xeno or a Besson Sovereign, I'd say that the Bach 184ML plays pretty much like a Bach trumpet, and also responds similarly to mouthpieces changes to a Bach trumpet, becoming brighter with a shallower mouthpiece, rather than harsh like a lot of British Brass Band-style cornets.

I hope that this will help.

Take care

Lou
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have my support Lou your answer is well thought out and a good contribution. I have long argued that trumpets and cornets are much closer in design than is commonly believed and your experience confirms that belief.

I still believe that we are trying to shoot ducks in the dark.

Does the OP like the sound of the trumpet but it costs too much, in that case only cheap gear can be considered.

Does the OP only have short arms, in that case any short cornet would do if it can sound like the trumpet

Does the OP need to to sound like a trumpet for a particular piece but is in a brass band who will only allow him to play a cornet.

Does the OP want to play taps and look like he is using a bugle but sounding like a trumpet

Does the OP want to travel abroad and has a trumpet but needs a small instrument that sounds like the trumpet

We have no idea of his needs or limitations or the reasons for rejecting the trumpet. No solution can be right if it is not fit for purpose and we dont know the purpose other than it must sound like a Bach 190S43.

So he should buy a Bach 190S43 since that is what he wants, But he doesnt want a Bach 190S43 and hasnt said why.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bflatman wrote:
You have my support Lou your answer is well thought out and a good contribution.

You are very welcome.

I have long argued that trumpets and cornets are much closer in design than is commonly believed and your experience confirms that belief.

Regarding this, I believe that typical British brass band cornets such as the Besson Sovereign/Prestige and Yamaha Maestro/Xeno/Neo are less trumpet like than the Bach 184ML.

I still believe that we are trying to shoot ducks in the dark.

I couldn't agree more.

Does the OP like the sound of the trumpet but it costs too much, in that case only cheap gear can be considered.

Does the OP only have short arms, in that case any short cornet would do if it can sound like the trumpet

Does the OP need to to sound like a trumpet for a particular piece but is in a brass band who will only allow him to play a cornet.

Does the OP want to play taps and look like he is using a bugle but sounding like a trumpet

Does the OP want to travel abroad and has a trumpet but needs a small instrument that sounds like the trumpet

We have no idea of his needs or limitations or the reasons for rejecting the trumpet. No solution can be right if it is not fit for purpose and we dont know the purpose other than it must sound like a Bach 190S43.

So he should buy a Bach 190S43 since that is what he wants, But he doesnt want a Bach 190S43 and hasnt said why.

I have a feeling that he already owns a Bach 190S43, and likes his sound on it, since he mentions this trumpet in particular rather than just asking for suggestions of cornets which sound like a trumpet. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm rather confused regarding this thread. I've been playing cornet for 23 years, and over the years have played a lot of different styles requiring a lot of different sound concepts. Never once have I wanted my cornet to sound exactly like a trumpet. I'm sure however that the OP has a legitimate reason, which he'll hopefully share.

Take care

Lou

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