Warburton size problem on kanstul

ASB1 · Veteran Member Joined: 15 Apr 2005 Posts: 241

I need a new mpc and the comparator shows that all the sizes in the 4 series are the same except the SV cups. The SV cup diameters are even w/the 3 series...why is this? I want to buy one all-around/jazz and one lead piece. should i just get the S cup? or is the comparator wrong?

also I play on a 3c right now, will the 4 rim be a good switch as far as contour and diameter? do warburtons sound better? lol

Riojazz · Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 5:30 pm Post subject:

I recommend you just call Warburton and ask. They're very helpful on the phone.
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Matt Finley https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases
Kanstul 1525 flugel with French taper, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schagerl rotary, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS & Touvron-D.

hose · Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 5:53 pm Post subject:

Are you looking at this web version? I think somebody as been messing with some of the Kanstul comparator sites. On this one they are all different shapes in the 4 series.

http://kanstul.net/mpcJN/Compare/CompareIE.HTM
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Dave Wisner

Picketts
Yamaha 6335RC
Yamaha 8335RS
Lawler Flugel
Kanstul cornet

blasticore · Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 8:32 pm Post subject:

ewetho · Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 8:34 pm Post subject:

They are helpful but not as definitive as I'd hoped. Look at a Bach 1B vs. a Schike 20D2d and you'll see they are almost identical. Uh, Not even. Most guys look at it and can't believe how HUGE it actually is.

I look more for general profile info nothing more and still hope it is close.

Heck they show more difference between a 1C and 1D than between a 1B and 20D2d. I can tell you that my Bach 1 series are all the same diameter and agree with Bach Literature within .001". As I measure my 20D2d it is within .002". And they are .030" off of each other. So how is that???

Also shows the 3C to much shallower than my 1C and it is not. It was actually very close even with my 7C. Heck my CKB 3C is the same as my VBC 3C. The Shilke is as much of a change bigger than the 1c as the 1c is from the 3c.

Personally find it a VERY compelling idea but not as well measured as I'd hope or at least consistently transfered to diagrams of the same scale.

hose · Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:15 am Post subject:

A couple of years ago I asked Terry his opinion of this site. He said it could be very accurate, but it was accurate only for the mpc measured. If the maker's control methods are not consistant then the mpc measured will not give you accurate feedback for every model.

And, as blasticore said, Terry has changed his cup design since the fire so, in effect, there are two different Warburton designs, pre-fire and post-fire. It is easy to see and feel the difference plus the new ones have "Oviedo" stamped on them.
_________________
Dave Wisner

Picketts
Yamaha 6335RC
Yamaha 8335RS
Lawler Flugel
Kanstul cornet

regularsopguy · Heavyweight Member Joined: 16 Oct 2003 Posts: 577

ASB1 · Veteran Member Joined: 15 Apr 2005 Posts: 241

So since they are different now, which ones should I try to get? anyone know how they differ? can I expect the sv diamter to be the same as the other 4 series if i get it? thanks

hose · Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 8:48 am Post subject:

The post-fire cups are not completely bowl shaped. There is an inner cup "ledge" that you can feel with your finger between the rim and the throat. And the opening into the throat is a little larger.

You would have to try them yourself. There are plenty of the pre-fire "bowl shaped" cups available on the internet. The rim itself seems to be the same. And the backbores are the same.
_________________
Dave Wisner

Picketts
Yamaha 6335RC
Yamaha 8335RS
Lawler Flugel
Kanstul cornet

kallen · Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:43 pm Post subject:

Does anyone know if the Kanstul Comparator ever got updated to reflect the post-fire Warburton cup shapes?
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Yamaha 8335G
Yamaha 8310Z
Yamaha 6330S-II Cornet
Yamaha 631FH Fluegelhorn
Warburton 5M/6*, 5FL

Jazz@heart · Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:53 pm Post subject:

I'm not sure, but the old warburtons (at least the 3M that I play) had a rim contour similar to Bach MV3C. The new ones are more flat across, with more bite on the outer edge. Warburton can make the old design if you ask them nicely.

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Listen

kallen · Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:29 pm Post subject:

I have the pre-fire 4M and 4MD, but about a year ago started using the current (Warburton USA stamped) versions of these. I've gotten comfortable with the current rims and actually prefer the sound of the current cup designs. To my mind, there's a noticeable difference in how they feel and respond. Some players have remarked that they find the inner rim bite a little too sharp on the current models, but I've gotten used to it.

The Kanstul Comparator is a useful visual aid in figuring out how different mouthpiece designs work, and especially in figuring out what direction to go when changing mouthpieces. It would be even more useful if it were absolutely current, but, hey, we're not exactly paying Kanstul to access it.

The Warburton site shows cup cross-sections at http://www.warburton-usa.com/index.php/trumpet-cornet-and-flugelhorn-mouthpieces#cup_designs, another useful visual aid.
_________________
Yamaha 8335G
Yamaha 8310Z
Yamaha 6330S-II Cornet
Yamaha 631FH Fluegelhorn
Warburton 5M/6*, 5FL