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Bflatman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Nov 2016 Posts: 720
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Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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I am not saying that I know best how to clean valves but simply that chemically vinegar appears to degrade the brass by reacting with zinc and possibly accelerating the red rot phenomena.
I too am at a loss as to how to clean valves so they look like new, but is this a desirable thing anyway. I dont mind my valves looking a little dirty with a patina on them as long as the important bits, the valve surface that slides in the casing is clean.
I personally would trust the chemicals that techs use rather than a home DIY solution, They know what they are doing more than I do.
On the other hand I would love to hear of a home DIY solution that is both effective and safe to use. Sadly vinegar doesnt look to be that solution.
I should add that I have tested white vinegar to see if it dissolved zinc from the brass some time ago, I immersed a small piece of brass in vinegar. In approximately 10 minutes the brass became very clean, however the surface became redder than it originally had been and much redder than brass usually is.
I took this to be an indication that there was a much greater amount of copper on the surface than expected. Zinc turns red copper to a golden yellow so a red colour suggests loss of zinc.
This result worried me enough to stop me using vinegar on my own gear. |
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stumac Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 Posts: 697 Location: Flinders, Australia
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Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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I use a lot of white vinegar to de-rust iron and steel components, I find differences in activity depending from which supermarket chain I purchase it from, I suspect it is watered down to cheapen the price.
The Eric Brand Instrument Repair Manual uses Muratic (Hydrochloric) Acid for cleaning brass instruments which is more reactive than vinegar.
Take your horn to a tech and it is probably better not to know what it has been bathed in.
A friend took his raw brass Alexander french horn to a local "tech" for a service, it came back a beautiful shade of pink, I do not know if this was de-zincification or chemical deposition of copper due to a stale bath that had been used many times, I suspect the latter as it soon wore off.
I shall repeat my slide test with a branded vinegar and see if the results differ.
Regards, Stuart. |
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ghelbig Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 May 2011 Posts: 908 Location: Reno, NV
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Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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stumac wrote: | The Eric Brand Instrument Repair Manual uses Muriatic (Hydrochloric) Acid for cleaning brass instruments which is more reactive than vinegar.
Take your horn to a tech and it is probably better not to know what it has been bathed in.
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For what it's worth:
1) Red-Rot is the dezincification of brass - the "red" in "red-rot" is the copper left behind.
2) Zinc is highly soluble in hydrochloric acid - that's why leadpipe swabs were invented.
Yeah, it's probably better to let the pros use the nasty stuff.
Gary. |
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ConAlba New Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2015 Posts: 8 Location: Scotland
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Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:44 am Post subject: |
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I use isopropyl alcohol
Ronnie |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1286
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Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:47 am Post subject: |
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ConAlba wrote: | I use isopropyl alcohol
Ronnie |
Does it make the valve ports look new? Or does it merely get everything extremely clean, as far as you can tell? Just curious. |
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ConAlba New Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2015 Posts: 8 Location: Scotland
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Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:23 am Post subject: |
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No, it just cleans and degreases thoroughly [good if you're changing to a different valve oil for instance], it doesn't strip anything though. |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3636 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:50 am Post subject: |
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Isopropyl alcohol will clean and not hurt anything. Any sort of acid, (vinegar, muriatic, etc.) represents a risk if it isn't killed properly. A soapy water-baking soda solution is what I use. The player cleaning the horn at home doesn't need acid - elbow grease is far preferable.
-Lionel _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1286
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Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:21 am Post subject: |
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Revisiting this thread from almost a year ago. Decided to use some Brasso on the valve ports and top sections of the valves to brighten the brass. It works. Not quite like new, but no longer dingy-looking ports and tops. Just be careful not to rub any Brasso on the Monel section, obviously. Mask it off with painter's tape, if you feel you might. I used Q-Tips for the ports and a soft cloth on the tops, and yes, I completely dissembled the valves but was careful to place the felts in a logical order to the side before starting. |
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cbtj51 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2015 Posts: 725 Location: SE US
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Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:49 am Post subject: |
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dstpt wrote: | Revisiting this thread from almost a year ago... |
Does anyone have any experience with this product offered by Pollard, PrestoValves, https://www.prestovalves.com/valve-cleaning-products ? _________________ '71 LA Benge 5X Bb
'72 LA Benge D/Eb
'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
‘92 Bach 37 Bb
'98 Getzen 895S Flugelhorn
'00 Bach 184 Cornet
'02 Yamaha 8335RGS
'16 Bach NY 7
'16 XO 1700RS Piccolo
Reeves 41 Rimmed Mouthpieces |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1286
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cbtj51 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2015 Posts: 725 Location: SE US
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Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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How well did it work for you? Are you still using it? I read in the link that it is compatible with the PDQ Valve Product. What valve oil did you use with it? Would you recommend this product?
Kindest regards,
Mike _________________ '71 LA Benge 5X Bb
'72 LA Benge D/Eb
'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
‘92 Bach 37 Bb
'98 Getzen 895S Flugelhorn
'00 Bach 184 Cornet
'02 Yamaha 8335RGS
'16 Bach NY 7
'16 XO 1700RS Piccolo
Reeves 41 Rimmed Mouthpieces |
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cbtj51 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2015 Posts: 725 Location: SE US
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Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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dstpt,
Sorry for the 40 questions approach! I really have a need to use on a horn that has been in storage for a while and really needs some serious valve cleaning to get to a reasonable starting point. I am open to consider any and all suggestions.
Kindest regards,
Mike _________________ '71 LA Benge 5X Bb
'72 LA Benge D/Eb
'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
‘92 Bach 37 Bb
'98 Getzen 895S Flugelhorn
'00 Bach 184 Cornet
'02 Yamaha 8335RGS
'16 Bach NY 7
'16 XO 1700RS Piccolo
Reeves 41 Rimmed Mouthpieces |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1286
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Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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cbtj51 wrote: |
How well did it work for you? Are you still using it? I read in the link that it is compatible with the PDQ Valve Product. What valve oil did you use with it? Would you recommend this product?
Kindest regards,
Mike |
I'd suggest you follow the instructions on the bottle, all of which I can't recall right now. I still have a couple of bottles and use it when needed. Most of my valve oils are synthetic, but I don't think you are to use Clean Stroke with any valve oil, per se. Again, I'd suggest the instructions. And although I don't know of any product that is a guaranteed cure-all, I'd yet recommend this product. I have not used PDQ Valve Oil. In fact, this is the first time I'm seeing it, even though I've been to the Warburton website many times! Maybe it's fairly new?
http://www.warburton-usa.com/index.php/pdq-valve-oil
If you're having problems even pushing down the valves (like I did today on a friend's Schiller baritone that sat around without use for a few weeks), then I would suggest some kind of penetrating oil first...
https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=penetrating+oil&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
Besides that, there is a lot of info in this TH thread that might be able to help. |
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cbtj51 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2015 Posts: 725 Location: SE US
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Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the reply dstpt!
The valves in question are on an Olds Ambassador Cornet from the 60s that a friend gave me in the early 80s. I have never played it and for that matter, it has not seen the light of day in many years until recently. It appears to have many young student miles on it but the valves still work very sluggishly even with a light oiling. There is a gummy deposit that appears similar to cosmoline all over and it does not seem to want to come off very easily. I would like to see if I could get this horn in action so that I can donate it to the thrift store associated with our local Rescue Mission if it is worth moving along. I just don't wish to add to any damage that might already be present.
Your answers are most appreciated.
Mike _________________ '71 LA Benge 5X Bb
'72 LA Benge D/Eb
'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
‘92 Bach 37 Bb
'98 Getzen 895S Flugelhorn
'00 Bach 184 Cornet
'02 Yamaha 8335RGS
'16 Bach NY 7
'16 XO 1700RS Piccolo
Reeves 41 Rimmed Mouthpieces |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1286
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Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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cbtj51 wrote: | Thanks for the reply dstpt!
The valves in question are on an Olds Ambassador Cornet from the 60s that a friend gave me in the early 80s. I have never played it and for that matter, it has not seen the light of day in many years until recently. It appears to have many young student miles on it but the valves still work very sluggishly even with a light oiling. There is a gummy deposit that appears similar to cosmoline all over and it does not seem to want to come off very easily. I would like to see if I could get this horn in action so that I can donate it to the thrift store associated with our local Rescue Mission if it is worth moving along. I just don't wish to add to any damage that might already be present.
Your answers are most appreciated.
Mike |
The horn may need to be professionally degreased in a sonic cleaner, but if nothing else, you could get some Simple Green (generally consider harmless to brass instruments) and create a water ratio, maybe of 20/80? (someone else may have a better suggestion) and soak the body of the horn in one plastic tub and the valves, slides, and all detachable parts in another suitable plastic container.
Before using Simple Green, I personally would be taking the instrument apart, including dissembling all valve parts and laying the felts in order to the side to keep them dry. I would work on cleaning individual parts, using Dawn dishwashing liquid or an equivalent thereof, and water...soaking parts if necessary. There are all kinds of things that people use to scrub the inside of slides, including inexpensive bottle brushes, but I generally use Brasso on the raw brass parts, which can be used to break down accumulated gunk on the male portions of slides. Be careful NOT to get Brasso on the monel segments of the valves! It is an abrasive product that can cause massive damage to valves and inner casings. Also avoid getting it on finishes (silver, lacquer, et al).
You could use a soft toothbrush to help remove the buildup on the valves, along with Dawn or jump to the stage of using Simple Green, which some may say is virtually no different in efficacy nor function. I generally think of Simple Green as being a little more of a refined cleaner, and certainly not as viscous as Dawn, but both can be used in a diluted state during the process if you so desire. Others may have some better suggestions for you. Best to you in trying to restore the Olds cornet to prepare as a suitable donation! |
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cbtj51 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2015 Posts: 725 Location: SE US
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:31 am Post subject: |
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dstpt,
Thanks for the detailed insight. I will try the Simple Green approach this afternoon.
Much appreciation,
Mike _________________ '71 LA Benge 5X Bb
'72 LA Benge D/Eb
'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
‘92 Bach 37 Bb
'98 Getzen 895S Flugelhorn
'00 Bach 184 Cornet
'02 Yamaha 8335RGS
'16 Bach NY 7
'16 XO 1700RS Piccolo
Reeves 41 Rimmed Mouthpieces |
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Manuel de los Campos Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 654 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:01 am Post subject: |
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cbtj51 wrote: |
The valves in question are on an Olds Ambassador Cornet from the 60s that a friend gave me in the early 80s. I have never played it and for that matter, it has not seen the light of day in many years until recently.
Mike |
I think any good degreaser will do, like acetone or purified petrol that is used for fueling lighters and for removing stains from clothing, both products are easy to find in any good houshold store
I would wipe off the pistons with a rag with purified petrol and soak the instrument in hot water with soap, the one you use for doing the dishes.
With a test tube brush you can scrub the cylinders _________________ Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs) |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7013 Location: AZ
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:32 am Post subject: |
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For what it's worth, I asked Zig Kanstul if it would hurt my Benge valve pistons, if I soaked them in white vinegar. He kind of chuckled and said something like, "Well..., it certainly won't hurt them." I think his unspoken opinion was that it was a waste of time, because the vinegar wasn't strong enough to actually do anything.
I wanted it to remove the buildup from the valve oil I had been using and it did that. It also brightened up the bare brass of the port tubes and spring barrels a bit.
As an aside, instruments are routinely submersed in chemicals that dissolve solder after assembly in order to remove the excess. That is one of the things that "acid bleed" is from. I cannot imagine a little vinegar would compare to that. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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JoeLoeffler Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Sep 2004 Posts: 243
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:36 am Post subject: |
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Why do all of these valve parts need to be shiny - particularly to sell horns? I am certainly less interested in horns that have “suspiciously shiny” parts on them. (Shiny inside slide tubes, valve windways, etc.) Keep your horns clean. Let the parts be oxidized the way they naturally get in normal (well-maintained) use. It will be fine. Go practice. |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7013 Location: AZ
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:13 am Post subject: |
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JoeLoeffler wrote: | Why do all of these valve parts need to be shiny - particularly to sell horns? I am certainly less interested in horns that have “suspiciously shiny” parts on them. (Shiny inside slide tubes, valve windways, etc.) Keep your horns clean. Let the parts be oxidized the way they naturally get in normal (well-maintained) use. It will be fine. Go practice. |
Because, you don't chrome plate brass instruments! _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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