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Red-rot--at what point does it matter?


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markp
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:33 pm    Post subject: Red-rot--at what point does it matter? Reply with quote

There are visible spots of red-rot on the lead pipe of my 1970s Severinsen Getzen trumpet. I don't care about cosmetics.

I think of red-rot as a kind of cancer that rots metal away. Eventually, the holes will rot all the way through and air will escape.

But, until that happens do I need to worry about it? Before it rots all the way through, will it cause problems with the way the air circulates that will make the horn sound, resonate or respond differently?

And when it finally goes all the way through and cause air leaks, can't I just get a patch to seal the air in?
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It won't cause any problems until it gets so widespread that the pipe starts cracking open. In 99% of horns I've seen, it doesn't affect it much. You can have it acid-cleaned, which gets some of the moss out of the inside, but it isn't necessary. And that's a replaceable part, so no big deal.
-Lionel
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
It won't cause any problems until it gets so widespread that the pipe starts cracking open. In 99% of horns I've seen, it doesn't affect it much. You can have it acid-cleaned, which gets some of the moss out of the inside, but it isn't necessary. And that's a replaceable part, so no big deal.
-Lionel


I agree, and I definitely take what someone who actually IS a tech as correct.

But personally, being obsessive compulsive, even though I know red rot takes a long time to get to a point where you need to replace a leadpipe, it would still drive me nuts if it was in a horn I liked.

As said, thatís just OCD-me.

Brad
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Dieter Z
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Relax!!!
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I asked this question in one conversation with Byron Autrey. My Benge was showing a little dark area inside the lead pipe. He said pretty much what "your brass" said, with the addition that, as the pitting got worse, the horn might lose some of its focus and slotting. He recommended I clean the inside of the lead pipe with ultra fine (1500 grit) sandpaper rather than change out the pipe, since the rot hadn't progressed very far. That was Zig Kanstul's assessment, as well. They felt was a bigger risk because I might not like how the horn played after the change of pipe.
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markp
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
I asked this question in one conversation with Byron Autrey. My Benge was showing a little dark area inside the lead pipe. He said pretty much what "your brass" said, with the addition that, as the pitting got worse, the horn might lose some of its focus and slotting. He recommended I clean the inside of the lead pipe with ultra fine (1500 grit) sandpaper rather than change out the pipe, since the rot hadn't progressed very far. That was Zig Kanstul's assessment, as well. They felt was a bigger risk because I might not like how the horn played after the change of pipe.


THIS is what I'm worried about--the horn losing focus and slotting, and then not being the same with a replacement pipe.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's important to note that "red rot" is not really like cancer in so far as removing the existing oxidation does not inhibit future oxidation the way removing cancerous tissue stops further cancer growth (if you get it all). In fact, with some metals (including aluminum), it is the fact that the metal oxidizes quickly and forms a thin layer of oxidized metal that stops the oxidation process, that makes such metals less prone to (deep) corrosion.

While removing the oxidation from the inside of a leadpipe is a good idea, to prevent continued oxidation, just squirt some valve oil into the leadpipe every few days to keep the inside of it coated and keep the oxygen away from the metal.

Cheers,

John Mohan
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halfgreek12
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had good luck using gun bore hones on a drill to clean out old lead pipes.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't recommend sandpaper, hones, or anything that cuts or abrades. My method is to plug the tuning slide end of the pipe, fill with muriatic acid, and let set for a couple of minutes. Then rinse, scrub out, and soak the pipe in a soapy water/baking soda bath for another couple of minutes. Inside of the pipe often comes out looking brand new.

HOWEVER, I don't recommend trying this at home, this is for someone used to the correct practice and timing of the procedure to do it. And, sometimes the zinc leaching will continue and show up in the pipe after a short time. Depends on the alloy, how far the dezincification has gone, etc.

John's recommendation of valve oil down the pipe every day is an excellent one; it sets up a barrier that slows down the effects of your body's acids on the metal. Keep it clean and oiled!

-Lionel
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ghelbig
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
While removing the oxidation from the inside of a leadpipe is a good idea, to prevent continued oxidation, just squirt some valve oil into the leadpipe every few days to keep the inside of it coated and keep the oxygen away from the metal.

Red-rot isn't oxidation (oxidized brass is green), but I can't argue with the advice.

wiseGEEK wrote:
Dezincification of brass is a form of selective corrosion that happens when zinc is leached out of the alloy leaving a weakened porous copper fitting. This commonly happens in chlorinated water or in water that has high levels of oxygen and carbon dioxide.

www.wisegeek.com/what-is-dezincification.htm

Gary.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was a product that a couple of our members tried to bring to market that would coat the surfaces and prevent red-rot. But unfortunately it didn't make it.

As to using valve oil down the leadpipe, since it will coat the same surfaces that the water accumulates in the instrument it probably is effective enough. But to be really effective one should ensure all of the surfaces are coated.
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adagiotrumpet
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought an old horn that was not well taken care of. No amount of soaking and scrubbing would loosen the corrosion inside the lead pipe. I even sent it in for a chemical cleaning, but although that helped, it did not remove all of the corrosion inside the lead pipe. It was recommended that I try muriatic acid, but having not used it before, I was reluctant to try it. I did however go to a hardware store and buy rubber stoppers that fit the lead pipe. I then put the horn on a trumpet stand, put a stopper in the lower end of the lead pipe and filled the lead pipe with white vinegar. I left it in there for a few minutes, drained it and scrubbed it with a stiff nylon brush. A construction supply house that sells epoxy anchors will have stiff, round nylon brushes of various diameters with long handles. After scrubbing the lead pipe, much of the corrosion was removed. Not wanting to leave the vinegar in too long since it is an acid, I repeated the process several more times finally removing practically all of the corrosion. I then filled the lead pipe with baking soda and water to neutralize the vinegar and then rinsed it with a lot of clean water.

I would be interested in any repairmen commenting on the wisdom of this procedure. Just because it worked for me doesn't mean it was necessarily a good idea.
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Hugh Anderson
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1500 grit sandpaper is similar to brown sack paper. 2000 more accurately. It won't hurt much.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
There was a product that a couple of our members tried to bring to market that would coat the surfaces and prevent red-rot. But unfortunately it didn't make it.

As to using valve oil down the leadpipe, since it will coat the same surfaces that the water accumulates in the instrument it probably is effective enough. But to be really effective one should ensure all of the surfaces are coated.


The product was called STOP Rot! It worked very well. nPart was the company that designed the applicator and found the proper preparation for the nano-coating. The coating was an exotic polymer suspended in floruosolvent, which is used in surgeries and leaves no residue. The polymer bound itself to the brass in a one molecule layer and blocked large molecules from attacking the zinc.

We could not guarantee the product would eliminate the formation of red rot, because rot is often formed at the foundry and present when the instrument is manufactured. Our product was self-applied by the purchaser, which was a second reason we could not guarantee its performance.

One particular poster went over the top to discredit our efforts and accused us of peddling a product that would kill people. Yes, he did. The group of posters that joined in on this line of thinking cursed our single molecule layer, of what is essentially a plastic, as somehow far more dangerous than breathing the fumes of valve oil (which is thousands of molecules thicker and made of known carcinogenic petroleum elements) sent down the lead pipe.

I still have hundreds of applicators and more product packages in storage. The shelf life is not known, so I cannot confidently stand behind those units. I did coat my flugelhorn with the nano coating and it did just we said it would do.
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RL
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It will take a while (had the same with an older Getzen cornet which I bought second hand - including red rot as a bonus) sold it after years and it was still in the same condition as I bought it. Maybe Getzen still has leadpipes in stock?
You can ask them..They've a great customerservice...
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

adagiotrumpet wrote:
I bought an old horn that was not well taken care of. No amount of soaking and scrubbing would loosen the corrosion inside the lead pipe. I even sent it in for a chemical cleaning, but although that helped, it did not remove all of the corrosion inside the lead pipe. It was recommended that I try muriatic acid, but having not used it before, I was reluctant to try it. I did however go to a hardware store and buy rubber stoppers that fit the lead pipe. I then put the horn on a trumpet stand, put a stopper in the lower end of the lead pipe and filled the lead pipe with white vinegar. I left it in there for a few minutes, drained it and scrubbed it with a stiff nylon brush. A construction supply house that sells epoxy anchors will have stiff, round nylon brushes of various diameters with long handles. After scrubbing the lead pipe, much of the corrosion was removed. Not wanting to leave the vinegar in too long since it is an acid, I repeated the process several more times finally removing practically all of the corrosion. I then filled the lead pipe with baking soda and water to neutralize the vinegar and then rinsed it with a lot of clean water.

I would be interested in any repairmen commenting on the wisdom of this procedure. Just because it worked for me doesn't mean it was necessarily a good idea.


Essentially, that's what I do in the shop, but using muriatic (hydrochloric) acid instead of vinegar. The risks of muriatic to the uninitiated include skin burns, really black marks if spilled on silver plating, and assorted other consequences. You should see how it screws up the finish on stainless steel. Or maybe you shouldn't.

Dezincification is such a slow process that it really is a good idea to have a pro do the cleaning, then it's easy for the player to keep clean without the need for any acid.
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will say that even a little red rot makes a negative impact on a horn.
I have a box full of bach, martin, olds, calichio, yamaha, conn 22b, and other pipes. About maybe 50 pipes. They are all pipes that i took off people horns when they wanted to try a different pipe. Usually they would give me the old pipe that did not like. About every one of them has some amount of red rot. some only a little.

I have several, like 10 or 15 bach pipes that have only a tiny bit of rot that you can see when looking inside the pipe. NONE of these have anything close to rot showing on the outside. Every time i try to use one of them, those pipes just are not as good as a perfectly clean shiny pipe. Its a big dif. You can polish the inside of the pipe and get the rot pretty smooth, and its better. But I can feel when its not perfect. Response, and core of the sound are affected the most. Playing soft, and keeping ping and core is tough with any amount of see-able rot.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lipshurt wrote:
I will say that even a little red rot makes a negative impact on a horn.
I have a box full of bach, martin, olds, calichio, yamaha, conn 22b, and other pipes. About maybe 50 pipes. They are all pipes that i took off people horns when they wanted to try a different pipe. Usually they would give me the old pipe that did not like. About every one of them has some amount of red rot. some only a little.

I have several, like 10 or 15 bach pipes that have only a tiny bit of rot that you can see when looking inside the pipe. NONE of these have anything close to rot showing on the outside. Every time i try to use one of them, those pipes just are not as good as a perfectly clean shiny pipe. Its a big dif. You can polish the inside of the pipe and get the rot pretty smooth, and its better. But I can feel when its not perfect. Response, and core of the sound are affected the most. Playing soft, and keeping ping and core is tough with any amount of see-able rot.


Interesting.
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Glissando
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anybody have any actual information (proof) that putting valve oil down the lead pipe actually helps prevent red rot?

Hoping for actual information here, not just opinions that don't have a strong basis.

I ask because I, too, have oiled the lead pipe for years -- but water and oil don't mix, so I always wonder whether there's really much coating of the brass going on. Even if you add the oil before playing (when there should be less moisture, presumably providing more dry brass for the oil to adhere to), it seems a lot to expect a few randomly dripped drops of oil to coat everything very well.

And then even if you do get some coating to begin with, one imagines that the oil would get diluted as you play -- adding moisture from your breath, draining the system with the water key, and repeating the process again and again. Seems like the drops of oil would be progressively diluted, and much of those few drops of oil would quickly go out the spit valve.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glissando wrote:
Does anybody have any actual information (proof) that putting valve oil down the lead pipe actually helps prevent red rot?

Hoping for actual information here, not just opinions that don't have a strong basis.

I ask because I, too, have oiled the lead pipe for years -- but water and oil don't mix, so I always wonder whether there's really much coating of the brass going on. Even if you add the oil before playing (when there should be less moisture, presumably providing more dry brass for the oil to adhere to), it seems a lot to expect a few randomly dripped drops of oil to coat everything very well.

And then even if you do get some coating to begin with, one imagines that the oil would get diluted as you play -- adding moisture from your breath, draining the system with the water key, and repeating the process again and again. Seems like the drops of oil would be progressively diluted, and much of those few drops of oil would quickly go out the spit valve.


It's a good question, as some oils use alcohols as thinners and paraffin as a lubricant, too. I know that alcohol absorbs water and I think paraffin might a little. If the oil has detergents in it, they act to lower the hydro-phobic qualities of the oil.
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