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Should I keep my Bach 37


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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:30 am    Post subject: Should I keep my Bach 37 Reply with quote

Hi

I just thought that I'd run something by you guys.

I'm trying to decide whether I should keep my Bach 37 trumpet. I haven't played it anywhere out of the house for two years, and not at all for around the last six months (I keep it cleaned, and oiled and greased).

I switched to a Yamaha new version Xeno because I found a UK retailer who not only offered me the trade in price I was looking for for my Sovereign cornet, but also had an ex-demo Xeno, with the resultant price left to pay being within my tiny budget.

I tried the trumpet on approval and nearly sent it back, as it seemed stuffy in blow and even sounded stuffy. I tried a sleeved version of my mouthpiece which replicated the smaller gap of the supplied Yamaha mouthpiece, and the difference was night and day, both the blow and sound opened up nicely. I therefore kept the Xeno and it became my primary trumpet, initially owing simply to its more reliable valves. Probably it is simply familiarity and consistency of playing one trumpet (I've also kept to one cornet), but I've become more and more happy and comfortable with the Xeno, to the point that I'm not particularly interested in playing my Bach.

I've kept my Bach so far, because it is one of the older ones with the square bell bow to which Bach has returned, and apart from the intermittent sticking of the 1st valve on the upstroke, it plays very well, is in very nice condition, after being refurbished and finished in 24ct scratch gold plate, when I bought it used from Leigh at Eclipse, and it has that classic Bach sound. I'm currently doing a lot of orchestral playing, and have always much preferred the more even response and more secure slotting of the Xeno II for orchestral applications, whereas I've always preferred my Bach in more commercial settings, as it slots a little looser and is more flexible. Maybe this is simply my Bach 37 versus the Xeno II.

Anyway, despite preferring the Bach in more commercial settings, I cannot tolerate the sticking 1st valve, so play the Yamaha.

Again needing a C trumpet for an upcoming orchestral gig, I am considering selling my Bach 37 to fund buying a used C, but am worried that I'll regret it. The other complication is that I can't really sell my Bach as it is, but probably will not get back the extra funds I'd have to pay to put it back into full playing condition, and I have a feeling that after being in the hands of a good repairman, it is probably not going to be a trumpet I'm going to want to sell. Ideally I'd like my Bach 37 put back into good playing condition and blueprinted, and since it lives in my trumpet/flugel case anyhow, I'd use it for more commerical applications, keeping the Xeno for orchestra, and add a C trumpet. Sadly I don't have any spare funds at the moment, and I can't see that really changing, with children at home.

Anyway, I'd appreciate your views. Even though I prefer the Bach 37 to the Xeno for the little more commerically orientated playing I do, which nowadays is more American Song Book standards and light Latin/Jazz, when it comes down to it both the Bach 37 and Xeno II are both good general purpose trumpets and probably not sufficiently different to each other to really warrant keeping both, and if I was to play two different trumpets, maybe it would be better to keep the Xeno II and add something more suited to commercial applications. I don't need a spare trumpet, as I keep my Boosey and Hawkes Oxford for that purpose. Despite being a mid 1950s higher model student instrument and having a slightly less refined sound than my other two trumpets, after dialling in the mouthpiece gap and aligning the valves, it plays really well, and is perfectly adequate for a spare.

Decisions decisions. Please let me know what you think.

Best wishes

Lou
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I'm hearing is that you like your Bach 37 and have uses for it but that the sticky first valve has prevented you from choosing to play it. Have you had the sticky valve issue looked at and diagnosed by a qualified craftsman? Maybe it's no big deal and a quick, easy and inexpensive fix.

Before selling your Bach 37 I think you should get an accurate assessment of why the first valve is sticking, how it can be fixed and the cost of the repair. I'd then suggest that you start setting aside funds to have the repair done even if that takes a long time.

Your observation is correct that in order to sell the horn ethically you'd have to either disclose the problem (which would theoretically reduce the value of the horn by the cost of the repair) or repair the horn before selling it. Either way you would theoretically net the same amount for the horn when the sale was completed and the repair was taken into consideration. So, in the long run you really don't have anything to lose financially by having the horn repaired and when it's repaired and the problem is gone you will have the horn you think best for you in the situations you've described.

I think the best opportunity to come out a winner overall and be happiest in the long run is to have the horn repaired and then play it and enjoy it.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have a tech fix the first valve, then install an aftermarket leadpipe like a Melk or a Blackburn, then go back to the Bach.

I'm currently on a "Bachburn" - a Strad 37 with a Blackburn #19-348 leadpipe, and I really like this horn. This coming from a guy who went 10 years playing non-Bachs, and vowed that I'd never play a Bach again. The Blackburn leadpipe clears up some of the issues I've always felt that the stock leadpipe on ML/37s have. This horn is very warm and round with a bigger mouthpiece, but lights up nicely with a lead-type piece.

Or sell it - get the 1st valve fixed and flip it. You won't have any issues selling it.
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure what you mean by a commercial sound. I know of a small number of lead players who play on a 37 (Danny Barber, Scott Engelbright) Many more would use a 43(Gary Graham, Warren Leuning RIP) , 43LT or 72LT(Wayne Bergeron, Bernie Glow, Al Stewart, Danny Stiles, etc). I have a friend who is a phenominal player who plays a Xeno just like yours for the same purpose. His jazz/lead horn is a Bach Artisan. When I played with him back in the day, he was playing a 37LT.

Last edited by Ed Kennedy on Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't keep it. Just give it to me...
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slightly different angle . . . are you, a couple of years after selling it, going to ask yourself, 'WHAT IF ONLY I HAD KEPT . . .".
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Lou,

I think there are two good reasons to hang on to the Bach: (1) as a backup horn, and (2) for sentimental reasons. However, the first reason would require sending it out for a valve job, which isn't cheap. Do you have another backup horn, or just the Bach?

And there are two good reasons to sell it: (1) raise money for a C trumpet, and (2) get a little-used horn out of the house and into someone's hands who would play it.

I don't think you absolutely must repair the valves before you sell it; the buyer might prefer to arrange that himself/herself, especially one who's done that before, knows the process, and is picky about who does the work. You might find it difficult to sell with such issues, but it's worth a try. And it would help your cashflow to let the buyer handle it.

I think the Xeno II works well in a variety of music styles. I play mine in concert band, jazz band and pit orchestras, and I found it works great once I figured out how to go about playing it for each situation. Fantastic trumpet!
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trickg
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does it need a whole valve job, or would having a tech lap/buff the valve and casing take care of whatever the issue might be?
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you need a C trumpet for ďan upcoming orchestral gigĒ, or for orchestral gigS (plural)? Personally, I would not buy any horn for one gig, if thatís what you are saying here.

Regarding your valve issues with the Bach: if thatís why it now primarily resides in a case, I would bite the financial bullet and costs of shipping it out to a good technician and just get it fixed. If you like the horn other than the valve problem (which I would not tolerate either), get it repaired. I think I remember you mentioning that youíve made repair attempts, if those have not worked, send it to someone who is highly skilled; there are lots of guys who have been discussed here. Itís a valve problem, itís not curing cancer.
If itís not economically feasible to have it fixed now, let it live in that case for now and save up for it. Nearly every time I have sold a horn that I knew I would probably regret selling, I DID.

Brad
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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lou,

First, nobody should take any advice from me regarding trumpet related issues.

Second, my financial advice is probably worse than my trumpet related advice.

That said, I personally think that everybody should own a Bach Strad 37, and a Martin Committee, and a Benge CG, and a Lawler C7, and a Shires Destino III, and a Getzen Eterna cornet, and a Conn 80A, and a Schilke Piccolo, and an Inderbinen Wood Flugelhorn...

Life is short. Buy every horn you ever wanted and die happy.

Warm regards,
Grits
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Last edited by Grits Burgh on Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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pinstriper
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about getting the Bach repaired, then spend some time deciding whether you prefer it or the Xeno ? Whichever one goes, pays for the C. You keep the one you really prefer.
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Hugh Anderson
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sleeved mouthpiece? Cornet or what you use on Bach 37?
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cjl
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I'm biased, but I'll keep my own Bach 37 (a 1979 model, similar in age to yours, I believe) and my same age Bach 239 even past the bitter end (which I may be at since I haven't played trumpet in months now).

But you're English. I thought your all's tradition was Bb trumpets in the orchestra?

While I like my Bach C (with Blackburn 19-350 pipe and rounded tuning slide) a lot, I think that I could do an orchestra gig with the 37 quite easily.

For what it is worth.

-- Joe
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dr_trumpet
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got some sage advice one time from a departed trumpet master. He said, "Play whatever works and makes the right sound, but never sell your 7C." That said, the equivelent to that in the trumpet area is, "Play whatever you want, but never sell your Bach 37."

I know it isn't super serious, but maybe it is....I'll never sell my 37.

AL
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
What I'm hearing is that you like your Bach 37 and have uses for it but that the sticky first valve has prevented you from choosing to play it.

Hi Hermokiwi

Thanks very much for your reply. Yes, that is the case.


Have you had the sticky valve issue looked at and diagnosed by a qualified craftsman? Maybe it's no big deal and a quick, easy and inexpensive fix.

The problem in the UK is finding a repairer who offers services over and above those of the general local brass technician. The highly regarded ones who offer valve rebuilds etc. just don't seem to respond to email enquiries. I can't talk for them and can only guess their motives, but it appears that they are in sufficient demand to be able to pick and choose their work, and they don't seem interested in sorting the valves of a standard Bach 37 owned by just an amateur player.

Before selling your Bach 37 I think you should get an accurate assessment of why the first valve is sticking, how it can be fixed and the cost of the repair.

This is exactly what I'd like to do, if I could find someone both able and willing to provide an accurate assessment of why the first valve is sticking.

I'd then suggest that you start setting aside funds to have the repair done even if that takes a long time.

I can do that.

Your observation is correct that in order to sell the horn ethically you'd have to either disclose the problem (which would theoretically reduce the value of the horn by the cost of the repair) or repair the horn before selling it. Either way you would theoretically net the same amount for the horn when the sale was completed and the repair was taken into consideration. So, in the long run you really don't have anything to lose financially by having the horn repaired and when it's repaired and the problem is gone you will have the horn you think best for you in the situations you've described.

I think the best opportunity to come out a winner overall and be happiest in the long run is to have the horn repaired and then play it and enjoy it.

I fully agree.

Thanks again.

Take care

Lou

_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
Have a tech fix the first valve, then install an aftermarket leadpipe like a Melk or a Blackburn, then go back to the Bach.

Hi trickg

Thanks very much again. As I explained above, having a tech fix the first valve is my stumbling block. I appreciate what you say below, but I personally don't feel that my Bach needs a different leadpipe. I'm not even sure that it has a standard Bach 25. The original leadpipe had already been replaced by Leigh at Eclipse when I chose my trumpet from his selection of used Bachs, and since I can't see that it has any ledge at the top, rather the top of the leadpipe seems flush with the mouthpiece receiver, if it is a replacement Bach 25 leadpipe, the top seems to have been modified. Whatever the leadpipe is, it is the valves rather than the sound/playing characteristics of the trumpet, which are bothering me.


I'm currently on a "Bachburn" - a Strad 37 with a Blackburn #19-348 leadpipe, and I really like this horn. This coming from a guy who went 10 years playing non-Bachs, and vowed that I'd never play a Bach again. The Blackburn leadpipe clears up some of the issues I've always felt that the stock leadpipe on ML/37s have. This horn is very warm and round with a bigger mouthpiece, but lights up nicely with a lead-type piece.

Or sell it - get the 1st valve fixed and flip it. You won't have any issues selling it.

Thanks very much again.

Take care

Lou

_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed Kennedy wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean by a commercial sound. I know of a small number of lead players who play on a 37 (Danny Barber, Scott Engelbright) Many more would use a 43(Gary Graham, Warren Leuning RIP) , 43LT or 72LT(Wayne Bergeron, Bernie Glow, Al Stewart, Danny Stiles, etc). I have a friend who is a phenominal player who plays a Xeno just like yours for the same purpose. His jazz/lead horn is a Bach Artisan. When I played with him back in the day, he was playing a 37LT.


Hi Ed

Rather than thinking about any particular sound, I think that I am just referring to the fact that the Bach 37 is a good all-around trumpet, as is my Xeno II, and it is for more commercial playing that I feel that the Xeno is not completely what I want.

Regarding your friend. You mention that he plays a Xeno like mine, but uses a Bach Artisan for Jazz/Lead. Presumably he therefore feels that there is something better about the Bach Artisan than the Xeno for Jazz/Lead, and something better about the Xeno for I guess when you say the same purpose as me, you mean more orchestral applications, or he wouldn't use two different trumpets for different purposes. I know how I feel, but if you don't mind asking him or if he has previously said and doesn't mind sharing on here, I'd been very interested in his reasons for playing which of his trumpets where.

Many thanks

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig Swartz wrote:
Don't keep it. Just give it to me...


Hi Craig

It is my problem to deal with lol.

Take care

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Slightly different angle . . . are you, a couple of years after selling it, going to ask yourself, 'WHAT IF ONLY I HAD KEPT . . .".


Hi kehaulani

This is exactly what I am worried about.

Many thanks

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dstdenis wrote:
Hi Lou,

I think there are two good reasons to hang on to the Bach: (1) as a backup horn, and (2) for sentimental reasons. However, the first reason would require sending it out for a valve job, which isn't cheap.

Hi dstdenis

Thanks very much. Finding someone to do the work is the issue rather than the price in particular, but I know what you mean.


Do you have another backup horn, or just the Bach?

Yes, a Boosey and Hawkes Oxford. After dialling in the mouthpiece gap and aligning the valves, it is a surprisingly good trumpet. The only thing that really lets it down, is that it hasn't quite the sound of my other two trumpets. I wouldn't want the Oxford as my primary trumpet, but it is more than adequate for a spare.

And there are two good reasons to sell it: (1) raise money for a C trumpet, and (2) get a little-used horn out of the house and into someone's hands who would play it.

Very true, but I would much prefer to buy a C trumpet without selling my Bach, if I had the funds.

I don't think you absolutely must repair the valves before you sell it; the buyer might prefer to arrange that himself/herself, especially one who's done that before, knows the process, and is picky about who does the work. You might find it difficult to sell with such issues, but it's worth a try. And it would help your cashflow to let the buyer handle it.

I understand, thanks.

I think the Xeno II works well in a variety of music styles. I play mine in concert band, jazz band and pit orchestras, and I found it works great once I figured out how to go about playing it for each situation. Fantastic trumpet!

I agree that the Xeno II is a fantastic trumpet. I find it absolutely fine for all playing applications, but for my tastes and this is already after opening the blow and loosening the slotting via reducing the mouthpiece gap, I feel that it is rather slotty for my preference for more commercial applications. I like this and the very even response for orchestral playing, but I feel that I have to work harder than on my Bach for more commercial applications.

Take care

Lou

_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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