Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:46 am Post subject: Snark tuner for 8th grader?
Long story short: the middle school where I teach lessons bought Snark clip on tuners for the kids last year.
I had mixed feelings about this, but hey, I don’t run the band program. I do understand that a lot of kids at that level don’t KNOW whether they’re in tune, and even if they know they’re not, they don’t know if they are flat or sharp.
One kid in particular is very focused on using it, to the point where he gets uncomfortable without it. I did explain to him that when he plays in an ensemble he needs to use his ears to play in tune with the ensemble, my concern now is that because he is so focused on this tuner that he’s not learning to listen and is way too dependent on the thing.
Opinions? Is it obvious that he should be persuaded to either use it less or not at all?
By the way, this kid is a very good student who has made a LOT of progress in the two years I’ve been working with him, he is serious and practices.
As a teacher myself, having the awareness of tuning at a middle school level is a huge plus, though I think you're right to be concerned a bit with the student's over-reliance on the physical tuner.
Have you tried using "The Tuning CD" or other drones with your group? My band's have notoriously...ahem......"disliked" the distinct timbre of The Tuning CD drones, but there's no denying they've helped the band out, especially with forcing the students to use their ears and not their eyes to tune.
I've used cello drones from YouTube which function the same way, and it's easier on the ears.
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:26 pm Post subject:
Richard III wrote:
Why not tell them it's for the practice room and for tuning up? After that, put it away.
I’m hesitating doing that, though I tend to agree, because the band directors are the ones at this school who instituted using them in the ensemble. Again, I’m trying to avoid philosophical conflicts, but I think I will discuss this with the head director, he may agree in the case of this student.
I was waiting for someone to post that Bergeron video.
I don’t think it’s a valid comparison, OBVIOUSLY those guys are not young, developing players. Hey, I’m not against the use of tuners at all, but in this particular case I’m concerned that my student may be depending on one and not learning how to listen and adjust without staring at a tuner.
I also doubt that if Bergeron was playing with a “lesser” ensemble that he would doggedly do what the tuner indicated and ignore what he was hearing.
I was waiting for someone to post that Bergeron video.
I don’t think it’s a valid comparison, OBVIOUSLY those guys are not young, developing players. Hey, I’m not against the use of tuners at all, but in this particular case I’m concerned that my student may be depending on one and not learning how to listen and adjust without staring at a tuner.
I also doubt that if Bergeron was playing with a “lesser” ensemble that he would doggedly do what the tuner indicated and ignore what he was hearing.
Brad
Part of the reason he has a tuner on is he also has studio monitors on with feedback from the monitors so he may need to have a visual feedback as well. The monitors kinda isolate your hearing a bit except what is coming through them especially if they are closed back.
I was waiting for someone to post that Bergeron video.
I don’t think it’s a valid comparison, OBVIOUSLY those guys are not young, developing players. Hey, I’m not against the use of tuners at all, but in this particular case I’m concerned that my student may be depending on one and not learning how to listen and adjust without staring at a tuner.
I also doubt that if Bergeron was playing with a “lesser” ensemble that he would doggedly do what the tuner indicated and ignore what he was hearing.
Brad
Part of the reason he has a tuner on is he also has studio monitors on with feedback from the monitors so he may need to have a visual feedback as well.
Ok, but how is what an incredibly accomplished musician is using in a studio relevant to an eighth grade kid who constantly focuses on his tuner instead of (I believe) listening? AGAIN, I have no problem with appropriate use of an electronic tuner, and I certainly would not question someone of Bergeron’s ability using one.
I do have a problem a kid using a tuner instead of developing a sense of pitch.
I don’t know for certain if that’s what’s happening, but I have concerns here.
I was waiting for someone to post that Bergeron video.
I don’t think it’s a valid comparison, OBVIOUSLY those guys are not young, developing players. Hey, I’m not against the use of tuners at all, but in this particular case I’m concerned that my student may be depending on one and not learning how to listen and adjust without staring at a tuner.
I also doubt that if Bergeron was playing with a “lesser” ensemble that he would doggedly do what the tuner indicated and ignore what he was hearing.
Brad
Part of the reason he has a tuner on is he also has studio monitors on with feedback from the monitors so he may need to have a visual feedback as well.
Ok, but how is what an incredibly accomplished musician is using in a studio relevant to an eighth grade kid who constantly focuses on his tuner instead of (I believe) listening? AGAIN, I have no problem with appropriate use of an electronic tuner, and I certainly would not question someone of Bergeron’s ability using one.
I do have a problem a kid using a tuner instead of developing a sense of pitch.
I don’t know for certain if that’s what’s happening, but I have concerns here.
Brad
I agree with you and don't think the kids should have a tuner. They should be using their ears. I dont think that video is in any way relevant to the kids. I was just explaining the video as someone posted it. I think if the kids have the tuners they will rely on them too much and not learn how to tune by ear.
I was waiting for someone to post that Bergeron video.
I don’t think it’s a valid comparison, OBVIOUSLY those guys are not young, developing players. Hey, I’m not against the use of tuners at all, but in this particular case I’m concerned that my student may be depending on one and not learning how to listen and adjust without staring at a tuner.
I also doubt that if Bergeron was playing with a “lesser” ensemble that he would doggedly do what the tuner indicated and ignore what he was hearing.
Brad
Part of the reason he has a tuner on is he also has studio monitors on with feedback from the monitors so he may need to have a visual feedback as well.
Ok, but how is what an incredibly accomplished musician is using in a studio relevant to an eighth grade kid who constantly focuses on his tuner instead of (I believe) listening? AGAIN, I have no problem with appropriate use of an electronic tuner, and I certainly would not question someone of Bergeron’s ability using one.
I do have a problem a kid using a tuner instead of developing a sense of pitch.
I don’t know for certain if that’s what’s happening, but I have concerns here.
Brad
I agree with you and don't think the kids should have a tuner. They should be using their ears. I dont think that video is in any way relevant to the kids. I was just explaining the video as someone posted it. I think if the kids have the tuners they will rely on them too much and not learn how to tune by ear.
Agreed, and my mistake! I incorrectly thought you had posted that video first, sorry about that.
Brad
Last edited by Brad361 on Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:25 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:57 am Post subject:
There might be a way to teach this kid some pros/cons of tuners without starting a religious war with the band director. Pros: good for spot-checking, especially in extreme temperature conditions. Cons: chasing the needle sounds awful.
You could also demonstrate how to play with a drone then ask him to try it. He seems motivated; maybe he'll take to drones, in which case his intonation will improve and the BD will think it's because of the clip-on tuner. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
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Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:31 am Post subject:
You can only focus on one thing at a time. If the kid is WATCHING a tuner he will not be LISTENING. In effect he is being taught as though he is deaf. _________________ Bill Bergren
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:30 am Post subject:
Lots of good responses here guys, thanks!
My plan is to mention my concerns to the head director and try to at least get the student to taper off using the tuner. He’s a good student, I think if he understands the downside he’ll be receptive to it.
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