Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:05 am Post subject: Struggling to keep a flat chin
Hi,
I’ve been trying to keep my chin flat for 4 months now and in the past few weeks, 100% of my practice is spent looking in the mirror and keeping the chin flat for everything I play.
I still can’t keep it flat on a gig if I’m playing anything above middle D....
I find keeping the chin from bunching the hardest thing in the world and it’s ruining my life. Please help.
Thanks[/list]
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5706 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:57 am Post subject:
According some, the chin should not be flat - it's allowing that muscle to bunch that creates the correct kind of compression for upper range development. I believe that both Superchops and Balanced Embouchure teach this. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP
Joined: 03 May 2005 Posts: 8975 Location: Monument, CO
Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:16 am Post subject:
Focusing on what your chin is doing instead of what you sound like and how other aspects of your playing are progressing is ruining your life. Google "paralysis by analysis". Ditch the mirror and focus on the music.
And yes, see the Callet and BE fora here for a different take on chin bunching. Many other teachers simply say to ignore it (bunching or not). _________________ "After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
Last edited by Don Herman rev2 on Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:20 am; edited 1 time in total
Briefly setting aside any debates about the wisdom of affecting a flat chin while you play, the reason that embouchure habits are so hard to modify is that they are so integral to our tone production. How can I make this change if this thing is part of how I play? It's the same difficulty that leads some football coaches to only work on footwork rather than throwing mechanics with quarterbacks.
Arnold Jacobs talked about introducing strangeness when changing habits. I would first work on any change without the mental hangups of the instrument. This would mean air patterns (just blowing), using breathing devices, playing on the lips alone, playing on the rim alone, playing on the mouthpiece, singing, whistling, etc. Change your habits by acting as a musician away from the hangups of the horn.
What do you hope to improve by flattening your chin?
I was a super-buncher up until a month ago, and it was wrecking my high notes. I solved it by lip and mouthpiece buzzing. Using a mirror I could get the "feel" of when I was starting to bunch, and now I can avoid it by feel. Once I got it on the mouthpiece I could move it to the horn, but not before then.
I still occasionally bunch when playing, but its more a rare desperation move as opposed to normal operating procedure.
All of the above was with the help of an expert teacher, I doubt I would have made it on my own. _________________ Thane Standard Large Bb / Monette Unity B6-7M mpc
Lots of vintage trumpets and mouthpieces
I'm fairly chin opinion neutral due to having used BE in the past to help my playing, so the question I have to ask is this: what is YOUR goal for trying to have a flat chin? Are you experimenting with something you read? Are you, under the tutelage of an experienced teacher, trying to correct something in your playing? l think if you're just trying to do something on your own here you're probably heading down a dangerous path. _________________ --Matt--
No representation is made that the quality of this post is greater than the quality of that of any other poster. Oh, and get a teacher!
Loud lip bends help flatten and strengthen the chin muscles. When the chin muscles are flattened and firmed, the lower lip puckers. This is where much (most) of the mouthpiece pressure should be applied, allowing the upper lip to vibrate freely. (The top lip does most of the vibrating when playing, especially in the middle and upper registers.)
Once a person can do loud lip bends descending a half-step, full-step, and step and a half in the middle register, continue lower into the pedal range. Pedals should be played with a very firm embouchure, and the tone is very centered and brilliant. Pedals (played correctly) require a great deal of lower lip pucker. Scales and arpeggio exercises from the pedal register to the middle and high registers teaches a person how to pucker properly in the high range.
Yes, there are methods that avoid the first octave of pedals. This is an approach taught by Callet, Smiley, and others. However, Mendez, Maggio, Gordon, and many others advocate including the first octave. Both methods have merit, obviously.
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:42 am Post subject:
Lucinda Lewis wrote about chin issues and developed a rehabilitation program for brass players that fosters a flatter chin, among other things. See her book, Embouchure Rehabilitation, and her website, http://www.embouchures.com . If chin bunching is causing problems for you, then I think the Lewis program would help you fix that. It isn't the only way, and there are others who could help you, but it's one I'm familiar with and I know it works.
If you still have trouble and feel that chin bunching is ruining your life, find a good trumpet teacher who's an expert on these things and get some help. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5706 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:07 am Post subject:
I guess it depends on what you're going for. Harry James' chin wasn't exactly flat when he was going for it - it bunched way up.
Louis Dowdswell also bunches a good bit. Maybe it's a classical vs. commerical thing, but I don't think anyone is accusing either Harry or Louis of doing it "wrong."
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 3415 Location: Garland, Texas
Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:29 am Post subject:
For years, I have observed band directors, walking up and down in front of a section of beginners, and singling players out by telling them "keep your chin flat." "The chin must be flat." "Flatten your chin!" This occurs multiple times in each practice, over many months. And since every little kid wants to follow instructions, each one diligently tries to make the chin as flat as possible, whatever the consequences.
I realize that many of you never received this type of dogmatic instruction. But here in Texas (and in many other places) it is a common practice. Why do teachers do this? Most of it comes from a misunderstanding of the pedagogy of Philip Farkas, who wrote "The Art of Brass Playing." The book covers a lot of material, but that material has unfortunately been synthesized down into a single recipe for success - flatten the chin.
I have heard from Farkas students who told me that Farkas himself was horrified by this gross misrepresentation.
My comments about the chin in the BE book were written primarily to counter this overemphasis on flattening the chin, and to instead allow the chin to do whatever it needs to do (which will vary from player to player).
I do realize that some players can develop a chin bunch that is way out of balance, which is an overreaction to not developing other things properly.
The OP has not mentioned why he feels that the chin bunch is limiting his playing. It could need to be addressed, but there is an equal possibility that he is singling it out as a problem because it "doesn't look right," when in reality it might not be his issue at all.
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9834 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:57 am Post subject: Re: Struggling to keep a flat chin
Martinharris wrote:
Hi,
I’ve been trying to keep my chin flat for 4 months now and in the past few weeks, 100% of my practice is spent looking in the mirror and keeping the chin flat for everything I play.
I still can’t keep it flat on a gig if I’m playing anything above middle D....
I find keeping the chin from bunching the hardest thing in the world and it’s ruining my life. Please help.
Thanks[/list]
Stay away from the mirror and stop trying to play with a flat chin.
Sincerely,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student
Joined: 26 Jan 2012 Posts: 856 Location: Point O' Woods / Old Lyme, Connecticut
Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:11 am Post subject:
Warren Vache Jr.'s lesson on embouchure.
Skip to 4:45.
Mr. Vache is in the camp of not only very minimal movement of the chin, but of the entire face.
I feel that any movement of the face does not cause you to play good or bad. It's only sympathetic muscular motion. It's what happens on the inside that counts.
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:55 am Post subject:
I noticed Dowdswell's chin did flex upward as he played high and loud. I've noticed that Steve Dillard's chin does the same thing in his Horntrader demo videos. I don't think that's a problem, though, because they still have a very strong, firm chin that's supporting their embouchure.
In her books, Lucinda Lewis explained how she's observed that players with embouchure overuse syndrome (chop fatigue) often develop a loose, wobbly chin that flinches and goes weak while they're trying to play. Jeanne Pocius Dorismond has mentioned the same thing in her Facebook posts. The girl in the Warren Vache video flinched her chin, and it made the sound stop. (I don't think she has chop fatigue, though--I think her embouchure was just developing.)
For brass players with embouchure overuse syndrome, the chin flinch is the brain's defensive mechanism to prevent further damage to the lips, sort of like the way that someone with a sprained ankle will limp to prevent putting weight on it. The problem is that some people get stuck with this chin flinch long after the damage is healed, and it prevents a full recovery and the ability to play like they used to.
Lewis's rehabilitation routine reestablishes the strong, firm chin that they developed when they first learned to play using a process she calls "mechanical imitation." The purpose isn't to just make it look nice and flat, it's to make it strong and supportive of the embouchure. I suppose some people use "flat chin" as a catch-all phrase to mean "don't let your chin go all loose and wobbly."
I agree with others who've mentioned that the OP hasn't explained why he's looking at his chin and whether there's really a problem there, such as chin flinch. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5706 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:08 pm Post subject:
dstdenis wrote:
I noticed Dowdswell's chin did flex upward as he played high and loud. I've noticed that Steve Dillard's chin does the same thing in his Horntrader demo videos. I don't think that's a problem, though, because they still have a very strong, firm chin that's supporting their embouchure.
Ya think!? Two very versatile players who don't appear to have any kind of chops limitations, and you don't think it's a problem that their chin flexes upward? Why thank you for that analysis and conclusion! LOL! _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2669 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:12 pm Post subject: Re: Struggling to keep a flat chin
John Mohan wrote:
Stay away from the mirror and stop trying to play with a flat chin.
Sincerely,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested
What he said. If you can, track down member Dan in Sydney and listen to him play... his chin bunch a little and he has one of the most amazing sounds you can imagine.
Across all my students there are some chin bunchers, some very flat chins, some more 'mobile' and I can't see a hard and fast rule that covers how they are playing. In fact the most picture perfect setup of any of my kids sounds pretty poor, which we are working on, but not by trying to manipulate his setting, rather working on sound concepts.
cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes...
Focusing on what your chin is doing instead of what you sound like and how other aspects of your playing are progressing is ruining your life. Google "paralysis by analysis". Ditch the mirror and focus on the music.
+1 ... your tone and musicality are what matter ... we are ALL made differently; therefore, find what works best for YOU. _________________ Schilke X3 Bb trumpet
Yamaha 631g Flugelhorn
Nicholson Monette Prana XLT mouthpiece
Kanstul Claude Gordon Personal mouthpiece
According some, the chin should not be flat - it's allowing that muscle to bunch that creates the correct kind of compression for upper range development. I believe that both Superchops and Balanced Embouchure teach this.
+1! Indeed. You don´t have to look emaciated to play trumpet. Flexibility of lips, no un called-for tensions should be given priority to. All "power vectors" directed towards aperture/lipcorners. Don´t think about your chin, let your face adopt whatever expression necessary for the sound projection.
If I try to keep my chin flat - I can notice how my breathing becomes shallow, kinda tense upper part of chest. But that´s how I´m wired - also deep in BE. _________________ Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
Last edited by Seymor B Fudd on Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:00 am; edited 2 times in total
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:17 am Post subject: Struggling to keep a flat chin
Hi
I wouldn't take advice on this via the internet! Too much wrong information!
Instead, go to a very well respected, experienced teacher who can see what is going on.
Joined: 07 Feb 2016 Posts: 903 Location: Nissa, France
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:41 am Post subject:
Hello,
even if it's better to have a balanced embouchure (without reference nor hostility to Balanced Embouchure ), i mean a musculature working in balance between agonist and antagonist muscles, for coordination, strength, stamina, efficiency etc.,
What is your problem with that ? is it just an esthetic problem ? you didn't precise...
best
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum