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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2609
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Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:24 am Post subject: What's meant by the "core" of a trumpet sound? |
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It's a term I see used a lot, anyone want to take a crack at interpreting what they think it means? _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3260 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:37 am Post subject: |
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It is a popular but mostly undefinable term that is part of the language of trumpetspeak.
I think, as a consensus, it generally refers to musical quality of tone but it is not something that can be measured or strictly defined. |
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aTrumpetdude Regular Member
Joined: 20 Jun 2016 Posts: 74
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Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:54 am Post subject: |
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I have no idea, but my horn has more of it than yours does. I asked for extra core when I bought it. _________________ Scodwell Boston
90's Bach Strad MLV 65GH
1950 Bach Strad 38
1969 Conn 8b Artist
1980 238 CL
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm1qCev_sfof-Bfj5MAMLrQ |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2609
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Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:59 am Post subject: |
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aTrumpetdude wrote: | I have no idea, but my horn has more of it than yours does. I asked for extra core when I bought it. |
_________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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Nonsense Eliminator Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Feb 2003 Posts: 5213 Location: Toronto
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Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:00 am Post subject: |
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If you visualize a trumpet sound, you might picture something like this:
The black area in the centre is the "core." This image, to me, would represent a fairly diffuse sound with little core, and that core doesn't have a lot of definition -- where the core "ends" isn't a sharp line, it's a gradual fading. Maybe this is a flugelhorn sound, where a similar picture for a C trumpet might show a larger black circle that ends more sharply and has relatively less "other stuff." (Aura?)
Obviously, using a picture to explain a word to explain a sound is pretty far into "dancing about architecture" (or maybe "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra") territory, but a lot of the words I'd use to describe the core and "aura" are visual metaphors. The core (and aura) can be bigger or smaller, denser or more diffuse, more or less well-defined, round or misshapen. _________________ Richard Sandals
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2609
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Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:13 am Post subject: |
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Nonsense Eliminator wrote: | If you visualize a trumpet sound, you might picture something like this:
The black area in the centre is the "core." This image, to me, would represent a fairly diffuse sound with little core, and that core doesn't have a lot of definition -- where the core "ends" isn't a sharp line, it's a gradual fading. Maybe this is a flugelhorn sound, where a similar picture for a C trumpet might show a larger black circle that ends more sharply and has relatively less "other stuff." (Aura?)
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Hmm. That's more or a less a visual representation of an EQ profile - which for Bb trumpet depending on whose chart you go by is roughly centered around 4k. Can anyone demonstrate that the eq profile changes significantly from one trumpet to another? I'd incredulous that there's any such thing as a trumpet that doesn't have a "core". _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel
Last edited by Robert P on Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:15 am; edited 1 time in total |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:14 am Post subject: |
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The trumpet sound we hear is a blend of the fundamental frequency and higher overtones. A good tone has a balanced blend of both. When someone talks about a "strong core" I interpret that to mean the presence of a robust fundamental sound.
When someone plays without a strong core, the fundamental is still there, but either it isn't as strong or the higher overtones are more predominant so we hear more of the shiny stuff. This is most noticeable when you compare the sound of an orchestral trumpeter playing high and loud versus some in the commercial/big band style. To me, the orchestral sound is usually meatier, with a stronger core, and the commercial sound has the balance tilted more toward the higher overtone frequencies.
I think our ears can be fooled by the style of play. For example, Bud Herseth played with both a strong core and lots of shiny overtones on many of his CSO recordings. That's why I don't understand why some think that a "dark" sound is ideal for orchestral trumpet playing—just listen to Bud! _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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mafields627 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Nov 2001 Posts: 3778 Location: AL
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Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:41 am Post subject: |
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kalijah wrote: | It is a popular but mostly undefinable term that is part of the language of trumpetspeak.
I think, as a consensus, it generally refers to musical quality of tone but it is not something that can be measured or strictly defined. |
If I could "Like" a post on here, I would like this one a thousand times. I think Maynard, Wayne, and Doc have lots of "core" -- but I also think that Bud, Phil, and Chris have incredible core. Wynton has a very different kind of core depending on the era and genre he's playing. _________________ --Matt--
No representation is made that the quality of this post is greater than the quality of that of any other poster. Oh, and get a teacher! |
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snichols Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Posts: 586 Location: Virginia
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Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:48 am Post subject: |
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Robert P wrote: | Nonsense Eliminator wrote: | If you visualize a trumpet sound, you might picture something like this:
The black area in the centre is the "core." This image, to me, would represent a fairly diffuse sound with little core, and that core doesn't have a lot of definition -- where the core "ends" isn't a sharp line, it's a gradual fading. Maybe this is a flugelhorn sound, where a similar picture for a C trumpet might show a larger black circle that ends more sharply and has relatively less "other stuff." (Aura?)
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I'd incredulous that there's any such thing as a trumpet that doesn't have a "core". |
Ever heard a Monette? |
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mm55 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2013 Posts: 1414
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Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:16 am Post subject: |
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Robert P wrote: | Hmm. That's more or a less a visual representation of an EQ profile - which for Bb trumpet depending on whose chart you go by is roughly centered around 4k. Can anyone demonstrate that the eq profile changes significantly from one trumpet to another? I'd incredulous that there's any such thing as a trumpet that doesn't have a "core". |
So now, that raises questions such as, what do you mean by "EQ profile", and how does that image visually represent such an "EQ profile"? _________________ '75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
'13 CarolBrass CFL-6200-GSS-BG flg
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2609
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Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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mm55 wrote: | Robert P wrote: | Hmm. That's more or a less a visual representation of an EQ profile - which for Bb trumpet depending on whose chart you go by is roughly centered around 4k. Can anyone demonstrate that the eq profile changes significantly from one trumpet to another? I'd incredulous that there's any such thing as a trumpet that doesn't have a "core". |
So now, that raises questions such as, what do you mean by "EQ profile", and how does that image visually represent such an "EQ profile"? |
The parts of the audio spectrum that are more prominent or less prominent with a given instrument. The darkest part would be where the instrument is most prominent. A good way to hear this demonstrated is to listen to a track of a trumpet with a multiband compressor in audition mode which highlights the frequency range you've selected for reduction - as you sweep through the frequencies you'll find certain frequencies jump out more prominently than others. Recording people emphasize or de-emphasize instruments and shape the sound of instruments with this principle both with EQ and with mic choice since different mics themselves have different eq profiles. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel
Last edited by Robert P on Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:16 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2660 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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mafields627 wrote: | kalijah wrote: | It is a popular but mostly undefinable term that is part of the language of trumpetspeak.
I think, as a consensus, it generally refers to musical quality of tone but it is not something that can be measured or strictly defined. |
If I could "Like" a post on here, I would like this one a thousand times. I think Maynard, Wayne, and Doc have lots of "core" -- but I also think that Bud, Phil, and Chris have incredible core. Wynton has a very different kind of core depending on the era and genre he's playing. |
For me I hear three areas when listening to players. There is the true core, the shiny finish on top of that and the between area. The first three players you mentioned had lots of that middle area, and varying amount of the shiny outer part. But they did not to my ear have the core that most people talk about. Wynton's current equipment does not have much shiny but it also does not have an overabundance of the other two. I would call it a very balanced sound between the three. Is that what Monette is trying for? _________________ Richard
1903 Conn "The Wonder" Cornet
1943 Conn 80A Cornet |
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trumpet56 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jun 2010 Posts: 623
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Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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I had it explained to me by a teacher. The the sound is like a light bulb. The core or center is the filament and the overtones are the the bulb. |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8344 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:54 pm Post subject: Re: What's meant by the "core" of a trumpet sound? |
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Robert P wrote: | It's a term I see used a lot, anyone want to take a crack at interpreting what they think it means? |
kalijah wrote: | It is a popular but mostly undefinable term that is part of the language of trumpetspeak.
I think, as a consensus, it generally refers to musical quality of tone but it is not something that can be measured or strictly defined. |
Spot on. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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Hugh Anderson Veteran Member
Joined: 22 Sep 2011 Posts: 398
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Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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It can be played loud without blasting. |
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homebilly Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2010 Posts: 2200 Location: Venice, CA & Paris, France
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Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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when I bought my horn used I got it because the seller said that it played
like an expensive $400 core
I think I may have misunderstood him _________________ ron meza (deadbeat jazz musician) & (TH 5 post ghost neighborhood watch ringleader)
waiting for Fed-Ex to deliver a $50 trumpet to my door. shipping was prepaid by seller of course!
http://ronmeza.com
http://highdefinitionbigband.com |
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