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spyke Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2008 Posts: 177
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Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:47 pm Post subject: Pivot? |
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To pivot, or not to pivot, that is the question.
I'm a Stamp guy, and re-reading Roy Poper's companion book, and was surprised to see a pivot advocated.
I'm currently trying to play a lot more constantly and efficiently and have not been pivoting. Do you pivot? |
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MrOlds Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Apr 2003 Posts: 726 Location: California
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Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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The Reinhardt forum has lots of interesting info on the subject of pivot. There’s much more to it than where the bell points.
Never hurts to cross pollinate with input from multiple schools of thought. |
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take2 Regular Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2011 Posts: 68 Location: Watertown, MA
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Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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What does Poper say a pivot is? _________________ Jeff |
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spyke Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2008 Posts: 177
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Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | What does Poper say a pivot is? |
Quote: | "The Natural Pivot: Most players will find that the angle of the instrument will change from high to low and vice-versa. This is normal. When beginning on a low note and ascending, the bell should begin in the high position and travel down as you ascend. The opposite will be true when beginning on a higher note and traveling downward. This is called the "pivot." Be sure to keep your left hand relaxed enough to allow this action. See page 24 of this book for some Arban exercises in this technique." |
Page 24 has got some slur-two, tounge-two arpeggios that move between different inversions. He instructs players to not exaggerate the motion.
It's not made clear what it's supposed to do or what the benefit is, and is instead presented just as a thing that happens. |
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rufflicks Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2011 Posts: 641 Location: Mesa AZ
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Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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I pivot. I do not pivot to create something I pivot as a reaction to something. This means it is a byproduct of the natural change in jaw position in different registers. I do not think about it, I do not pay attention to it or worry about it. It, like certain bodily functions, simply happens and I am at peace with it. Best, Jon _________________ http://www.youtube.com/user/Rufftips
Remember this is supposed to be fun. |
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rufflicks Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2011 Posts: 641 Location: Mesa AZ
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spyke Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2008 Posts: 177
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Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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Could a lack of any pivot be considered a cause for concern? |
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Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1102 Location: Sacramento, Ca
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Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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spyke wrote: | Could a lack of any pivot be considered a cause for concern? |
If you're forcing yourself into a no-pivot situation and there are negative consequences, I would say it's a cause for concern.
If you're not actively trying to not pivot and there is nothing to suggest it's a problem, I wouldn't be concerned.
Also bear in mind there are different ideas about what "pivot" is.
Reinhardt described it in relation to what the embouchure is doing. Even when the horn isn't discernably changing angle, this pivot is occurring. I think I read somewhere he later thought 'pivot' wasn't the best term for it, but by then it had stuck. Maybe Rich (beboppinfool) can chime in on this.
Monette considers pivoting to be the action of lifting or lowering the head while playing and views it as compensation one does to force the sharp low and flat high registers in tune. This is not the embouchure action Reinhardt described.
Both are described as pivot and are clearly targeted at different aspects of playing. _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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Irving Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1888
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Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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Everybody pivots to some degree. Your pivot might be very small though. |
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Craig Swartz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 7770 Location: Des Moines, IA area
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Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:26 am Post subject: |
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Jon nailed it in his first post- the "pivot" is merely the mouthpiece rim following minute changes in lip/jaw/tongue positions/formations as we change pitches and registers. No change would equal no, or little difference in pitch since the partial changes are controlled here. Very slight, almost impreceptical differences for narrow intervals, more change for octaves and wider ones.
If you need an example, rip through Colin #14 (p 11 in my old book) as fast as you can (say, sixteenths at quarter note = 132 or faster) and see how your embouchure reacts to the quick changes. It is the reaction to the changes that causes the horn to "pivot". |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:03 am Post subject: |
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spyke wrote: | Could a lack of any pivot be considered a cause for concern? |
No. Absolutely not. If you practice a well-balanced routine correctly, things such as the amount of pivot (if any) will sort themselves out with time and practice. A good, experienced teacher is essential to make sure you practice the correct material and that you practice it correctly. It's not an accident that the word practice will appear five times in this message.
Best wishes,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student |
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Pops Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Sep 2002 Posts: 2039 Location: Dallas (Grand Prairie), Texas
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Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:26 am Post subject: |
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spyke wrote: | Could a lack of any pivot be considered a cause for concern? |
A Horrible sound is a cause for concern.
How we LOOK when we play is NOT. _________________ Clint 'Pops' McLaughlin
You can always Google me.
50 years Teaching. Teaching and writing trumpet books is ALL I do.
7,000 pages of free music. Trumpet Books, Skype Lessons: www.BbTrumpet.com |
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EBjazz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2001 Posts: 2368 Location: SF Bay Area
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Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:29 am Post subject: |
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I think most of us use more movement then is necessary. This is easy to correct once we are able to identify the excess movement and try to minimize it. When we started out we discovered that we could pivot and get a low note and it worked great. As we got better we didn't need so much pivot but we continued to use it although it was detrimental to our playing.
Finding the excess movement is simple. Slur from G down to C as you naturally do. Notice how much you pivot (dropping the jaw). See if you can make the same slur without that degree of movement. If the bottom note is a bit on top (out of center) then you are doing it correctly. With our excess pivot we tend to scoop the low notes from underneath. Listen to yourself and see if you do this. If you hear the scooping it is a result of too much pivot.
Eb _________________ Eric Bolvin
http://bolvinmusic.com/product/the-modern-jazz-trumpet-method/
www.bolvinmusic.com |
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MF Fan Veteran Member
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 Posts: 397 Location: The Great White North
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Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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I suggest you re-post your question in the Reinhardt forum if you want to have an informed discussion. Choosing to intentionally tilt your horn up or down for high or low notes isn't pivoting as far as the Reinhardt method teaches. A true pivot refers to the track your mouthpiece naturally moves, along with the aperture of your embouchure, across your teeth/gums when changing registers. The track of a pivot might include some horizontal movement as well. A person's pivot may or may not result in vertical movement of the bell of the horn, though generally speaking as a pivot occurs upward vertically the bell of the horn tends to move downward, it's simple geometry, a fulcrum if you will. Jon has it right, a pivot isn't simply deciding to move the angle of the horn when you move across registers, but is the result of what your chops are doing. Many people think the Reinhardt approach is overly analytical, but discovering how to play in a way that is in harmony with your unique physical attributes can make the difference between a good and great player. Working with a qualified Reinhardt taught instructor is critical. There's so many misconceptions out there that it's easy to get pointed in the wrong direction. _________________ MF Fan
__________
L.A. Benge 5x
Holton MF3
Lead Trumpet - My Basement Jazz Orchestra |
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Rod Haney Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937
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Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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Hate to raise a dead horse, but I look at pivots as points in the mp to direct air to. Lower on cup for notes you play ~ below middle and towards top of rim for higher. Didn’t think it had much to do with where your horn is pointed as my position is below straight out it doesn’t move, my jaw seems to be the cause of the pivot. Not saying no movement but in my case seems to be very little. Isn’t the real idea behind pivoting to direct air to top for higher notes?
Love to hear more knowledgeable opinions.
Rod |
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Christian K. Peters Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Nov 2001 Posts: 1532 Location: Eugene, Oregon
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Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:19 pm Post subject: Pivot? |
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Hello all,
So do upstream players have a reverse pivot? I am constantly amazed to watch those folks play, as it is so different than how I play. _________________ Christian K. Peters
Schilke Loyalist since 1976 |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3309 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:15 am Post subject: |
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I would first concentrate on finding the balance between rim pressure on the upper and lower lips that gives good results depending on the range. Pressure on the lower lip can be adjusted by controlled and coordinated jaw usage. If that results in what seems to be a pivot of the mpc or trumpet, then so be it.
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Vin DiBona Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 1473 Location: OHare area
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Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:22 am Post subject: |
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Watch the very small adjustment Herseth makes in the octave leap.
He didn't "pivot" much at all, did he?
By the way, that is Phil Smith on second. He had already been named principal in NY, but insisted he go on this tour to play second.
Also, listen to how Bud plays this with a particular feeling that he was able to impart to this lick. It set the tone for the whole movement and yes, Solti was smiling at him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XbigVE3PBU
R. Tomasek |
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Vin DiBona Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 1473 Location: OHare area
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Rod Haney Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937
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Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:55 am Post subject: |
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JayKosta wrote: | I would first concentrate on finding the balance between rim pressure on the upper and lower lips that gives good results depending on the range. Pressure on the lower lip can be adjusted by controlled and coordinated jaw usage. If that results in what seems to be a pivot of the mpc or trumpet, then so be it.
Jay |
My question should be more direct. Is directing air to points within the MP what people are trying to do with whatever they define as pivoting? i.e. is whatever you do designed to direct air to points in the MP in order to create higher or lower pitch? Seems there should be some point we can all agree we are trying to achieve.
Not trying to make any point, just wish to know what other people find is helpful for tone and range with using pivot methods, and why they feel it helps😊
Rod |
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