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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2596
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Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:36 pm Post subject: How do you gauge whether your horn "blends" if |
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it's true that you can't accurately tell what your horn sounds like from behind it? Do you feel like you can really tell what the section sounds like to the audience sitting in the section?
How valid do you think the concept of blending really is to begin with? I'm not talking about someone not playing a part with the appropriate style or dynamics, what I'm referring to is the basic tonal character of individual instruments. I've heard great stage bands where the horns being played were all over the map - which I imagine is the case with the majority of bands like that.
Do you think you could really tell if you listened to an orchestra blindfolded that one of the horns sticks out if they're all playing typical orchestral mp's? _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12664 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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Technically the sound from the section is the blend.
But the way the term is used here means that the voices of the trumpet blend together without one sticking out or, perhaps, being lost. In addition they produce a unique and desirable sound.
I personally have never cared about what instruments are in a section, but then I have never played at the high level like the CSO.
It would be interesting to know what instruments were played in Maynard’s, Chase’s or Doc’s sections. I think we can all agree they sound great. |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7012 Location: AZ
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Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:12 pm Post subject: Re: How do you gauge whether your horn "blends" if |
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Robert P wrote: | it's true that you can't accurately tell what your horn sounds like from behind it? Do you feel like you can really tell what the section sounds like to the audience sitting in the section?
How valid do you think the concept of blending really is to begin with? I'm not talking about someone not playing a part with the appropriate style or dynamics, what I'm referring to is the basic tonal character of individual instruments. I've heard great stage bands where the horns being played were all over the map - which I imagine is the case with the majority of bands like that.
Do you think you could really tell if you listened to an orchestra blindfolded that one of the horns sticks out if they're all playing typical orchestral mp's? |
The issues I've found with blending are mostly up to the player, but there are a few things I've come across that do matter. The biggest one is the difference in scale between makes of trumpets. I had one experience where I sat (playing a Wild Thing) between two Bach players on one side and a Benge CG, Getzen Sevrensen on the other. Trying to match intonation with these largely amateur players on these very different horns was impossible. I ended up just listening to the violins and trying to play in tune with them.
My original spec Wild Thing was so powerful that I found it hard to judge how strongly I should play. I held back a lot in a section, if the players weren't strong, or I would just bury them all. Blending was difficult, unless the players were confident and strong. I don't mean loud and overblowing.
Some specialty instruments just don't have a sound that fits with a section of standard trumpets. One Harrelson I tried was like that. It was designed as a solo horn and that's what it needed to be. Period. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1102 Location: Sacramento, Ca
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Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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I blend by playing as in tune with the section as possible, with the goal being as pure intervals as I can get among the section.
Provided the instruments and/or mouthpieces my sectionmates are using aren't of any extreme design, using this approach results in a good blend. _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:01 am Post subject: |
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Blending is an important issue. Problems are almost always due to a player’s approach, not the instrument. Good players can blend on a wide variety of instruments; less-skilled players don’t blend well no matter what they’re playing. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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Andy Del Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2665 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:16 am Post subject: |
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When you look at the good orchestra sections, they are not all playing on the same brand instruments, mouthpieces, or mutes. But they blend! It's not the instrument, but the player.
I have played on all sorts of instruments, and some will blend better than others in certain situations, but overall, it doesn't matter which one I play on. The rare times it IS an issue, there is another person playing who can't or won't try to blend. _________________ so many horns, so few good notes... |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:26 am Post subject: |
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I'm just going to throw out two thoughts that I haven't seen here yet...
1) When you're playing in a section, you're not usually hearing the direct "out-front" sound of the players around you either. If you're listening, you'll often get a better feel for that out-front blend than you might think you are - if you're not listening... well if you're not listening, there's no point asking.
2) There's no harm in taking in other kinds of feedback....
- If the blend is really that bad, the director is going to tell you - if they don't, it's either okay or there are more significant issues with the performance (to the point that focusing on the subtleties of blend is missing the wood for the trees).
- If you have trusted ears listening, have a chat - if one sound is cutting through too much (and it's not been noticed yet) then the first step to sorting the problem is to be aware of the problem. |
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Nonsense Eliminator Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Feb 2003 Posts: 5212 Location: Toronto
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Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:33 am Post subject: |
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Every time this conversation comes up, I make the same point, so...
There is blending and there is matching. I can blend with the horns or the flutes or the violins, but I certainly can't match them. When it comes to trumpets, unless the models in use are totally incompatible, if everybody plays with a good sound they will blend. But they might not match. If the music is homophonic, that might not matter. In a setting where solo voices are supposed to sound distinctive, two or four or twenty different sounds might not matter. But in a setting where players need to trade passages back and forth seamlessly, the instruments need to blend and match.
Perhaps a bigger issue is that different horns project differently. Many years ago, our second trumpet player brought a horn he was trying out. It seemed like a perfectly good instrument -- in tune, even, pretty sound. But we agreed that he (almost) might as well have stayed home, because compared to me (and to his regular horn) it was practically inaudible in the orchestra. I suppose that counts as "balance" rather than blend, but it relates to the question of using different instruments.
As TKSop observed, while we don't hear the same thing the audience hears, we're also sitting behind the bells of the rest of the section. We don't get the sound from bone conduction when other people play, and we may get a more direct reflection of our own sound, but we do hear each other in similar ways. If the players feel that they're blending/matching/balancing, they usually are. The exception is if their sounds behave very differently in the hall, either because of technique or (you guessed it) using instruments that project differently. _________________ Richard Sandals
NBO |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:04 am Post subject: Re: How do you gauge whether your horn "blends" if |
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Robert P wrote: | Do you think you could really tell if you listened to an orchestra blindfolded that one of the horns sticks out if they're all playing typical orchestral mp's? |
I put relatively little stock on the concept of a typical orchestral mouthpiece. Could I tell if one was on a 1X and another was on a 3C? Probably not. But there are players who believe they can get away with much more specialized shallow pieces in an orchestra. In most cases I believe this is wishful thinking. And yes, I suspect I could tell in a blindfold test. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9028 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:13 am Post subject: |
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Is this worth this much text? The OP asks, "How do you gauge whether your horn "blends". Isn't the answer simply, "Whether or not the section leader or musical directors comment on it"? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Last edited by kehaulani on Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12664 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:18 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | Is this worth this much text? The OP asks, "How do you gauge whether your horn "blends". Isn't the answer rsimply, "Whether or not the section leader or musical directors comment on it"? |
Yes. No. |
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gregplo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jan 2002 Posts: 505 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:58 am Post subject: |
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While we cannot hear what is out in front of the horn, we can certainly hear the horns around us. We did a piece at church yesterday that required a blended sound between the two trumpets and the trombone. We listened to each other, and we found that sweet spot where you couldn't tell the difference between each of us (tone and intonation were together) when we were playing the same notes. When we are playing harmony, again, listening carefully to each other, you could hear other overtones. I was playing my Galileo Dolce, the other trumpet player was playing a Bach 37, and the Trombone player was playing a Shires trombone. Different horns, but we were able to blend well together...and that was not lost on our conductor who was very complimentary. _________________ Best Regards,
Greg
Edwards Gen II
P. Mauriat PMT-75 (Ti/Copper)
Conn 61B
Benge 90B
Conn 80B LB
CarolBrass Arturo Sandoval Pocket Trumpet
CarolBrass CFL-620R
Getzen CB 610
Remember...when He returns, the trumpet shall sound.... |
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