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BbTrumpet1 Regular Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2017 Posts: 30
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Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:21 pm Post subject: Cause of Harsh Tone? Desperate college student |
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Hello,
A bit of background information: I am a college music ed major. I transferred to a university after finishing community college and my trumpet teacher is not giving me my lessons. My jury is on Wednesday and my teacher first heard my solo piece this last Friday during run-throughs. I am dealing with a lot of stress because of this and have been working all semester to get the lack of lessons resolved but in the meantime am having complications.
My sound is typically very dark and full, to the point where strangers would come up to me and compliment me when I was warming up and playing scales. It got me a lot of money at this school. However, as of mid last week things have not been feeling right. I feel very tense and my tone sounds very harsh and airy. It's the worst in my upper register. I am worried that I am doing something wrong and due to my lack of lessons, I have nobody to help diagnose this. I am meeting with my old teacher over break who plans on helping me, but in the meantime as I prepare for break, what are some things I should look out for?
It all started with a couple of "stiff" playing days after I (semi-successfully) auditioned for the top ensemble here. I haven't had a comfortable playing day in three days which is unusual because I have been doing nothing but longtones, easy slurs, and low etude which usually cures me pretty quickly. I know I'm not giving much to go on, but has anybody experienced anything similar before? Do you have any advice of how to avoid making things worse? Any good exercises?
Any ideas are greatly appreciated. [/b] |
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brassmusician Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Feb 2016 Posts: 273
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Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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The most likely explanation for what you have experienced, in my opinion, is that you have overworked your chops and not recovered fully yet. Time should bring improvement but one exercise you could try is playing second line G's, one per bar at quarter note = 60, using breath attacks, for minutes at a time. This helps to improve your response. If it was me I would be doing gentle pedals and small amounts of mouthpiece buzzing but I wouldn't do them they are not already part of your routine. Less likely and harder to fix scenarios would be you have inadvertently changed your embouchure somehow or torn a muscle in your lip. Be worth checking your trumpet is in complete working order and your source of trouble is not missing cork on a water key or something stuck down the bell. There are expert 'chop docs' out there like Pops or Jeanne Pocius-Dorismond who can give you much better advice. You may be able to get a skype lesson or just phone them. |
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david johnson Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jul 2002 Posts: 1616 Location: arkansas/missouri
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:47 am Post subject: |
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!! I feel very tense and my tone sounds very harsh and airy. !! you have described much of your trouble in that statement. Clarke 4 RELAXED will help. Loosen the shoulders more. Harold Hill's 'think system' is good, too |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:09 am Post subject: |
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Might be overwork—try tapering off your effort level. And do some easy lip bends. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1473 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:26 am Post subject: |
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dstdenis wrote: | Might be overwork—try tapering off your effort level. And do some easy lip bends. |
+1!
Again one of us has fallen into the overuse trap. Read Lucinda Lewis´s (yes a lot of words but you´ll be able to destillate) helpful suggestions. http://www.embouchures.com/brokenembouchures.html
Couple of years ago I fell into this trap myself - and was much helped by kind suggestions writing directly to her. Of course so much more could be said&done - the state of your chops prior to this, the particular way you blow etc etc. _________________ Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
Last edited by Seymor B Fudd on Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Craig Swartz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 7770 Location: Des Moines, IA area
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:12 am Post subject: |
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"Sing along" in your mind as you play and concentrate on the pitches in your head. It's essential we hear what we want to sound like before we produce the sound- if we react later it can cause all sorts of problems and anxiety. Oh, and perhaps back off just a bit. Good luck fixing a bad habit by Wednesday... |
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JoseLindE4 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 791
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:39 am Post subject: |
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Since you say your sound has gone from good to bad, what's changed?
Practice amount?
What you practice (have you scrapped your fundamental routine to work on jury music more)?
Where you practice (is your perception of sound different)?
Health?
Weather?
Diet?
Sleep?
Equipment?
My guess is that your answer lies somewhere in these questions. Have you recorded yourself? |
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dkwolfe Veteran Member
Joined: 01 May 2015 Posts: 116 Location: North of the sweet tea line
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:23 am Post subject: |
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Good Morning;
You've been given a lot of great advice already, so I won't repeat what others have said. What I would add is two things; first, find Malcolm McNabb's interview on Brass Chats and give it a listen. He provides some fantastic advice on how to get your chops back to working, after playing hard, day in and day out. Second thing I would say (and I had to learn this from experience) would be to stop thinking about what you are doing when you are playing. Listen, and concentrate on getting the best sound you can, but DON'T THINK ABOUT HOW YOU ARE DOING IT! You really cannot create and analyze at the same time (none of us can, it's a brain wiring thing), so don't try. Relax, play soft and easy, and just focus on the sound.
D
p.s. My jury is on Wednesday as well, good luck. _________________ Nullius in Verba. |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5681 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:03 am Post subject: |
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I'm going to pile on the same bandwagon with everyone else - you've overworked your chops, and your level of mental stress hasn't helped either. Right now your chops aren't functioning at their optimum, so you are pushing them harder to get the same result, but because they've been overworked, it just can't happen.
The mental stress you're going through is undoubtedly causing body tension, and that's also going to compound the problem.
There's not much to be done between now and Wednesday except to rest your chops. You can still work them, but you'll have to take things down to base fundamentals with a lot of easy, soft, low, reduced mouthpiece pressure playing, and at this point, you've only got a day and a half.
This is one of those things where an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure.
Here's another kind of weird idea, but I've heard people who have success with it.
Get a few shot glasses - they have to be small - and fill one with very cold water, and one with warm/hot water, and do alternating soaks of your chops for a couple of minutes each. I suspect that it's more that just your lips though - you've probably overworked most of the muscles around your whole mouth.
You could also do alternating hot and cold compresses of the whole area - don't get either one too hot or too cold though - you can do damage with both. Always end with the cold - the heat will increase the body's inflammatory response.
Keep us posted - I hope things click back in. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:31 am Post subject: |
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It seems pretty obvious you've overdone it. Frankly, I'm surprised this wasn't obvious to you. But that said, your thoughts are probably clouded by stress and worry. Try to relax, take it easy on the playing and you'll bounce back.
Best wishes,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student |
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rufflicks Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2011 Posts: 641 Location: Mesa AZ
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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Tension and stress are killers! They take our life and our sound. Find a way to get rid of the stress and the tension. This is key!
Best, Jon _________________ http://www.youtube.com/user/Rufftips
Remember this is supposed to be fun. |
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BbTrumpet1 Regular Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2017 Posts: 30
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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JoseLindE4 wrote: | Since you say your sound has gone from good to bad, what's changed?
Practice amount?
What you practice (have you scrapped your fundamental routine to work on jury music more)?
Where you practice (is your perception of sound different)?
Health?
Weather?
Diet?
Sleep?
Equipment?
My guess is that your answer lies somewhere in these questions. Have you recorded yourself? |
I do believe the answer is somewhere within those questions, as I have made quite a few changes to my playing regimen since transferring here, but they have been in effect since the beginning of the semester so it is hard for me to tell what exactly is causing the harm. I have been practicing for 3.5 hours a day consistently (not counting ensembles or other performances) which is about an hour more than I had been doing prior to. I spend the extra time on basics and easy longtones/flow studies. I thought I had gotten into a good practice regimen but without a teacher it has been hard to tell. I have just gotten over a cold which could be part of the tension but I have played through worse and sounded fine. Eating and sleep has definitely been scarce due to so much time being spent trying to resolve conflicts with this teacher so it is likely stress playing into this too. What scares me though is that the mouthpiece feels different when I put it onto my face and I worry if there is damage being done when I play now. I have been recording myself and there is a very obvious difference in sound (at least to me). |
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BbTrumpet1 Regular Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2017 Posts: 30
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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trickg wrote: | I'm going to pile on the same bandwagon with everyone else - you've overworked your chops, and your level of mental stress hasn't helped either. Right now your chops aren't functioning at their optimum, so you are pushing them harder to get the same result, but because they've been overworked, it just can't happen.
The mental stress you're going through is undoubtedly causing body tension, and that's also going to compound the problem.
There's not much to be done between now and Wednesday except to rest your chops. You can still work them, but you'll have to take things down to base fundamentals with a lot of easy, soft, low, reduced mouthpiece pressure playing, and at this point, you've only got a day and a half.
This is one of those things where an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure.
Here's another kind of weird idea, but I've heard people who have success with it.
Get a few shot glasses - they have to be small - and fill one with very cold water, and one with warm/hot water, and do alternating soaks of your chops for a couple of minutes each. I suspect that it's more that just your lips though - you've probably overworked most of the muscles around your whole mouth.
You could also do alternating hot and cold compresses of the whole area - don't get either one too hot or too cold though - you can do damage with both. Always end with the cold - the heat will increase the body's inflammatory response.
Keep us posted - I hope things click back in. | Thanks for all of the advice. I have been doing my best to relax because really there is nothing else that I can do, so there is no point in worrying. I have found that cold compresses at the end of a big playing day help me bounce back faster the next morning. Will have to try the alternating between heat and cold. |
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BbTrumpet1 Regular Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2017 Posts: 30
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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John Mohan wrote: | It seems pretty obvious you've overdone it. Frankly, I'm surprised this wasn't obvious to you. But that said, your thoughts are probably clouded by stress and worry. Try to relax, take it easy on the playing and you'll bounce back.
Best wishes,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested | It definitely does come to my mind in this situation but I did not make any significant changes to my practice routine which feels like a red flag. I will definitely take it easy the next few days on playing as I do not want to do something that will damage my playing further before I can get to see a teacher. My worry is that doing so will cost me my jury and audition later this week, but I suppose making things worse wouldn't get me a better result either. |
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BbTrumpet1 Regular Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2017 Posts: 30
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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Seymor B Fudd wrote: | dstdenis wrote: | Might be overwork—try tapering off your effort level. And do some easy lip bends. |
+1!
Again one of us has fallen into the overuse trap. Read Lucinda Lewis´s (yes a lot of words but you´ll be able to destillate) helpful suggestions. http://www.embouchures.com/brokenembouchures.html
Couple of years ago I fell into this trap myself - and was much helped by kind suggestions writing directly to her. Of course so much more could be said&done - the state of your chops prior to this, the particular way you blow etc etc. | Good read, it definitely does sound like overuse after reading that. Going to try to those suggestions, thank you. |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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When your sound goes bad the problem is often that you've suddenly changed the relationship of your lower lip to your upper lip in some way. Another problem could be that you're suddenly applying excess pressure which is interfering with the lip vibrations.
The trumpet is controlled by the lower lip. The upper lip essentially takes instructions from the lower lip and just does what it's instructed to do (which sometimes is make a bad sound). So whenever there is a problem I always want to rethink how I'm using my lower lip as my first effort to diagnose the problem. This involves not only vertical placement but roll in/roll out as well. You should be extremely familiar with what works best for you in these regards as a reference point.
Something that can help me get back on track is to switch to flugelhorn and practice on that for awhile (30 minutes or so) and then switch back to trumpet. I typically find that the problem doesn't happen on flugelhorn and, if that's the case, this reinforces my belief that the problem on trumpet is lower lip positioning and not excess pressure or fatigue.
If you have access to a flugelhorn try it and let me know what happens. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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trumpet.trader Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Jul 2017 Posts: 200
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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If possible, and it probably is just take a day or two off. There is nothing wrong, and you won’t “ruin your chops” or endurance by taking a break.
No long tones, pedal tones, soft exudes, lyrical work, no sitting on a random note for 20 mintutes, no exercise books, nothing. Just put the horn down.
Put the horn in its case and focus on anything other than trumpet for a while, give yourself a time to heal or even just get a reboot when you pick it up again.
Go work on a different project for a class you’ve neglected, go to the library, go play beer pong, go chase girls, go protest at what I’m sure is some active protest happening every day at your school.
Just put the horn down and I’m sure things will be better after a little time off. |
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Rod Haney Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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HERMOKIWI wrote: | When your sound goes bad the problem is often that you've suddenly changed the relationship of your lower lip to your upper lip in some way. Another problem could be that you're suddenly applying excess pressure which is interfering with the lip vibrations.
The trumpet is controlled by the lower lip. The upper lip essentially takes instructions from the lower lip and just does what it's instructed to do (which sometimes is make a bad sound). So whenever there is a problem I always want to rethink how I'm using my lower lip as my first effort to diagnose the problem. This involves not only vertical placement but roll in/roll out as well. You should be extremely familiar with what works best for you in these regards as a .... |
I don’t really have a sound picture of a dark sound, but if you have been trying to get a fuller sound it seems to involve the lower lip. At least that and range has been working better when I get the lower lip more involved in control. BUT if I try to go too far the sound changes direction rapidly. Like everything else when I discovered the “pucker” I took it too far and got sore and sounded like crap all the next (Short) day. Have you been trying to increase this darker fuller sound in getting more lip into the mp? I always start each day on about 5 minutes of pedal tones and end it the same way, always loosens me up. I knew I’d gone too far when I couldn’t play them that nite.
Don’t sweat this, do your best and you never need an excuse.
Rod |
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BbTrumpet1 Regular Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2017 Posts: 30
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks to everyone who replied. I've been taking most of the day off and just ran through my jury piece and felt a lot better. Even my accompanist had a look of shock on her face (she was probably very worried after hearing me these past few days ) and said I sound amazing. Break is starting soon and I will be able to relax, take a mini break, meet with my old teacher, and just play things that are fun.
I'm taking down all of the advice given for further reference! |
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JoseLindE4 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 791
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | What scares me though is that the mouthpiece feels different when I put it onto my face and I worry if there is damage being done when I play now. |
It's probably gangrene. Or things just feel a little weird. Sometimes my shoe feels a little funny when I put it on, but my foot hasn't fallen off yet. Play by sound, not feel and the feel will never be a problem.
Since the thing is tomorrow, the only answer is to warm up as normal and focus on making music during the performance. Tell a story and forget about your problems. Commit to making a musical statement. Everything feels weird during performances and auditions anyway, so why worry about it? Just be a musician; that's what people want to hear - not trumpet players.
After your performances, give yourself a little break and reevaluate where things are. Part of college is for learning how to make sure you're ready to play your best when it counts. Something in your preparation wasn't conducive to that, so try something different next time. Make sure to take care of your body and mind next time as well. Sleep, exercise, diet, and mental and physical breaks are important.
This is a marathon, not a sprint. The ensemble you play in 10 years from now is more important than the ensemble you play in next semester. I went to a large state school as an undergrad. I spent 3 years in the bottom band (think music ed majors working on a secondary instrument) and only spent one semester in the top groups. Most of the undergrads who sat above me all those years aren't working as musicians anymore while I've been able to make a comfortable living as a musician. Play in the best group you can, but life goes on.
You also may want to reevaluate the pacing and focus of your practice routine. Something isn't working right. |
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