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Steve A Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1808 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:25 am Post subject: |
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gabriel127 wrote: |
The whole premise of Jerome Callet's "SUPERCHOPS" embouchure was that it was a very strong, powerful upper register embouchure and this embouchure included a bunched chin. Harry James was his model of the Superchops embouchure bunched chin and all.
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I may be misunderstanding what the Callet context of this is (quite possible), but it doesn't look to me Harry James plays with a bunched chin in either of these videos with a bunch of good shots of his chops:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsBf8Y6jQVU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41VSPivcIPU
Can you give an example that shows what you mean, or explain further? |
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gabriel127 Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Nov 2005 Posts: 218 Location: Southern U.S.
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Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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Harry lip-synched in movies, he wasn't actually playing. If you look at footage where he is actually playing, you'll see him bunch the chin.
If that's not convincing enough for you, watch Carl Fischer play anything high. Watch him play his solo on Maynard's King Cat Theatre DVD on Misra De Nuka. His sound is as big as a house and his chin is bunched more than you'll ever see a chin bunched anywhere else.
It's a good thing no one ever filled Carl's head with this nonsense about having to play with a flat chin.
If you want to sit practicing in front of a mirror for the rest of your life and getting nowhere with it, then go right ahead and strive for the flat chin.
Look, Reinhardt and Farkas are dead. They made some good contributions to brass pedagogy, but they weren't always right about everything. Time to get on board with the 21st century and stop carrying that monkey around on your back (the flat chin fallacy). If playing with a flat chin was going to work for you, you would have seen some progress by now. Free your mind of that burden. |
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Steve A Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1808 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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gabriel127 wrote: | Harry lip-synched in movies, he wasn't actually playing. If you look at footage where he is actually playing, you'll see him bunch the chin. |
Interesting - I didn't know that. I don't really have an opinion either way on the flat/bunched chin, so I don't need convincing, I just had never observed that in watching Harry James and was curious. |
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TrpPro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2006 Posts: 1471 Location: Riverview, FL
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Steve A Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1808 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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TrpPro wrote: | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsBf8Y6jQVU
Check out 2:42 of this vid. It sounds like 4 or 5 more notes after the mouthpiece comes off the lips. |
True, but a bunch of the audio syncing is off in that part of the video - I assumed that there's that funny audio/video delay that youtube gets sometimes. Maybe not, though? |
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noahbenson New Member
Joined: 10 Jul 2017 Posts: 6
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Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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My old teacher always had me hold a finger on my chin, though you've probably already done that. I agree with what others have said though - you should stick to the music and not focus too much on what you're doing with your chops. I've noticed that my chops are starting to bunch up when I play as I'm learning to pinch my corners right now. |
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gabriel127 Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Nov 2005 Posts: 218 Location: Southern U.S.
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Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:23 am Post subject: |
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The ability to play with a flat chin is dictated by physical characteristics including a combination of the bite and jaw structure (underbite vs. overbite) and the angles of the teeth, both upper and lower. I'm talking about the up and down (occlusal) angles here, not the side-to-side angles.
So the bottom line is that if you try to play with a flat chin but have trouble with it, chances are, you don't have the kind of physical structure required to play with a flat chin. So stop beating your head against the wall trying to play with a flat chin, just because some people from the dark ages had preached this long ago and this fallacy is carried on today.
I'm so strongly opinionated about this because I WAS IN THE EXACT BOAT AS YOU many years ago. I tried and tried and tried to play with a flat chin and I just simply could not. I drove myself nuts with it for YEARS! I'm trying to throw you a rope here and save you from further frustration and for some reason, you want to be insistent on playing with the flat chin.
I later discovered with the help of the other sources that I've already mentioned on this thread that it is entirely possible to have a very powerful extreme upper register WITH a bunched chin! With that said, there were some things wrong with the original embouchure that I played on and when I corrected those things, I solved my problems, but the bunched chin remained. So the moral of the story is that the bunched chin was not the reason for my originally limited range. So stop blaming the bunched chin!
Did you look at Carl Fischer on the King Cat Theatre DVD as I recommended?
http://i64.tinypic.com/2hcq73o.jpg
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