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DocRoy New Member
Joined: 13 Jun 2017 Posts: 1 Location: Rochester Hills. MI.,48309
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Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:47 am Post subject: ultra sonic cleaning |
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recently purchased a used Bach 37, vintage 1994. it was suggested to me by a couple of fellow trumpeters that I get it ultra sonically cleaned. Can anyone out there tell me what this process will (or should) do to the horn's performance? |
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Don Herman rev2 'Chicago School' Forum Moderator
Joined: 03 May 2005 Posts: 8951 Location: Monument, CO
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Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:04 am Post subject: |
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It is just a new'ish way of cleaning the horn. The performance will change according to how dirty it is now, same as for any other cleaning. I would do it before using it just to get all the old gunk out. _________________ "After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley |
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Robert Rowe Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2004 Posts: 5364 Location: Chincoteague, Virginia
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Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:34 am Post subject: |
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Usually, ultra-sound cleaning is (too?) expensive. You can do almost as good a cleaning, manually.
I understand these devices and the disposal cost several hundred dollars ... and, the repair tech / shop is looking to recoup that expense, as well as turn a profit.
But, WHY are these entities (techs / shops) still trying to recoup their expenses, well after their initial outlay has been recovered, many times over ?
~ r2 ~
deplorable horn-player
_________________ ~ Love animals ... don't eat them. ~
I miss Genghis Khan .... |
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rlk Regular Member
Joined: 23 Nov 2014 Posts: 35
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Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:42 am Post subject: |
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Robert Rowe wrote: | But, WHY are these entities (techs / shops) still trying to recoup their expenses, well after their initial outlay has been recovered, many times over ? |
For the same reasons I still demand a paycheck well after my student loans have been paid off.
rlk |
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Robert Rowe Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2004 Posts: 5364 Location: Chincoteague, Virginia
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Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:21 am Post subject: |
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Apples and oranges.
**** reasoning.
~ r2 ~
deplorable horn-player
_________________ ~ Love animals ... don't eat them. ~
I miss Genghis Khan .... |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8333 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:47 am Post subject: |
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Robert Rowe wrote: | Usually, ultra-sound cleaning is (too?) expensive. You can do almost as good a cleaning, manually.
I understand these devices and the disposal cost several hundred dollars ... and, the repair tech / shop is looking to recoup that expense, as well as turn a profit.
But, WHY are these entities (techs / shops) still trying to recoup their expenses, well after their initial outlay has been recovered, many times over ?
~ r2 ~
deplorable horn-player
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The ones in the local music repair shops can fit a tuba and cost in the low 5 figures rather than hundreds.
Also, techs don't work for free - not to mention the cost of owning or renting the space and paying the electric bill. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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Robert Rowe Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2004 Posts: 5364 Location: Chincoteague, Virginia
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Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:12 am Post subject: |
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Spend away !!
I have about 20 horns (down from about 100).
Can't afford them AND ultra-sonic cleanings. I clean the horns by hand in a deep, plastic tub. Have large assortment of brushes. I do most of the work on my horns, including soldering, honing. I have the proper (professional band-instrument repair) tools. I work on my guitars (about 10), basses and mandolins, also. Have the proper tools, as well.
* Note *
I change oil and filters on my cars ... girlfriend's cars ... step-daughter's car .... Rotate all tires (for above). Also; do tune-ups, when I can get the shop-manuals. Do all maintenance and tune-ups on my motorcycles and road-(bi)cycles ... lawn mowers, chain saws, etc.
I am "old school". Do stuff, myself, when appropriate. I know what NOT to do, or try. My "home brew" valve-oil is similar to Tony Scodwell's. Has worked extremely well for decades. Cost?
~ r2 ~
deplorable horn-player, picker _________________ ~ Love animals ... don't eat them. ~
I miss Genghis Khan .... |
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1jazzyalex Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Jun 2016 Posts: 569 Location: San Jose, CA
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Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.trumpetmaster.com/threads/i-make-my-own-oil-anyone-else-do-this.48540/
Here's the link I found.
A short while back I was looking into penetrating oils and I found that WD-40 is about the worst, some stuff sold under the brand name "Blaster" isn't too bad, but by far the best was a mix of automatic transmission fluid and kerosene.
As one person in the discussion mentions, I used to use Break-Free CLP. I'd put a little in some Al Cass oil and that was my valve oil. But then I got a Getzen horn and discovered Getzen oil and havn't looked back. Great stuff. _________________ Yamaha 8335LA with Blessing 3C, 5C, Schilke 11A4A |
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ottoa57 Regular Member
Joined: 28 Jan 2010 Posts: 86 Location: Macomb, Mi.
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Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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On ultrasonic cleaning... 1st thing is first... How dirty a horn are we dealing with? How old is the horn... What general condition is it in? Ive owned horns.. Bought new by me... After 10 years look inside as clean as the day I bought it. So let's assess a horn on its individual condition and proceed from there. Depending on degrees of dirt.. Light grease. Or HEAVY calcium scale... This will determine what level or chemical, soap and water,,, degreaser, or ultrasonic cleaning is called for. Also how will you be disposing of chemicals these days? Muraic acid used judicially can be a good leadpipe cleaner diluted of course ( I'm talking 20 years ago).. These days disposal can be a safety problem. And then there's cost. I'm lucky to have a very good music store in town run by well trained staff.. That do an ultrasonic cleaning on a lacquer trumpet for 40.00!!! Silver.. 50.00 and they will replace all the valve pads inside and out and pay very strict attention to the PVA. I've seen same service quoted for 75.00 100, 125.00 or your mileage may vary.
Once the "cleaning", is done.. I subsrible to Doc Reinhardts advise of running water through the bell daily after playing.... This has kept my horns scale free and no build up whatsoever. Every few months I disassemble the horn and do a complete manual cleaning with dawn... Brush whatever little debris is there.. And I'm good to go. _________________ Otto Alcon
Warburton Consultant since 1986
Stomvi Forte, w/AGR & full trim kit
Yamaha Flugel YFH 631
Getzen Eflat/D |
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Robert Rowe Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2004 Posts: 5364 Location: Chincoteague, Virginia
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Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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$40 is reasonable.
〰 r2 ~ _________________ ~ Love animals ... don't eat them. ~
I miss Genghis Khan .... |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:27 am Post subject: |
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Crazy Finn wrote: | Robert Rowe wrote: | Usually, ultra-sound cleaning is (too?) expensive. You can do almost as good a cleaning, manually.
I understand these devices and the disposal cost several hundred dollars ... and, the repair tech / shop is looking to recoup that expense, as well as turn a profit.
But, WHY are these entities (techs / shops) still trying to recoup their expenses, well after their initial outlay has been recovered, many times over ?
~ r2 ~
deplorable horn-player
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The ones in the local music repair shops can fit a tuba and cost in the low 5 figures rather than hundreds.
Also, techs don't work for free - not to mention the cost of owning or renting the space and paying the electric bill. |
This.
IMO, if someone believes that a music store (or any business) is price gouging for a service, there’s a perfect solution: don’t purchase the service. For anyone to arbitrarily declare what is or is not a fair price for something, with no exact knowledge of the business’s overhead, is unrealistic. Do some companies make unreasonable profits? Sure. But especially when we are talking about non essential services or products, it’s a free market, anyone can ask any price they want for anything, no one is being coerced to purchase it.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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Robert Rowe Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2004 Posts: 5364 Location: Chincoteague, Virginia
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Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:48 am Post subject: |
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Brad361 wrote: | Crazy Finn wrote: | Robert Rowe wrote: | Usually, ultra-sound cleaning is (too?) expensive. You can do almost as good a cleaning, manually.
I understand these devices and the disposal cost several hundred dollars ... and, the repair tech / shop is looking to recoup that expense, as well as turn a profit.
But, WHY are these entities (techs / shops) still trying to recoup their expenses, well after their initial outlay has been recovered, many times over ?
~ r2 ~
deplorable horn-player
|
The ones in the local music repair shops can fit a tuba and cost in the low 5 figures rather than hundreds.
Also, techs don't work for free - not to mention the cost of owning or renting the space and paying the electric bill. |
This.
IMO, if someone believes that a music store (or any business) is price gouging for a service, there’s a perfect solution: don’t purchase the service. For anyone to arbitrarily declare what is or is not a fair price for something, with no exact knowledge of the business’s overhead, is unrealistic. Do some companies make unreasonable profits? Sure. But especially when we are talking about non essential services or products, it’s a free market, anyone can ask any price they want for anything, no one is being coerced to purchase it.
Brad |
Errrrr ... perhaps.
Fundamentally, I agree ... for the most part, with you. Me? ... I do not opt for goods or services I deem excessively costly.
Now ... ... how can one have an "exact knowledge of the business's overhead? ?
Many businesses are "fat". Too many percs ... excessive salaries ... extravagant fixtures, advertising, etc.
Look in the employee's parking lot ... observe the vehicles. Hondas / Toyotas / "plain-Jane" SUVs, pickup trucks ... or, BMWs / Benz's / high-end pickups ?
I'm not going to underwrite that kind of "overhead". Screw 'em.
I'll pay a FAIR PRICE (my idea of). Not some arbitrarily high figure.
Call me "thrifty" ... "frugal". But ... not CHEAP.
~ r2 ~
deplorable horn-(and other instruments) -player _________________ ~ Love animals ... don't eat them. ~
I miss Genghis Khan .... |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:39 am Post subject: |
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Robert Rowe wrote: | Brad361 wrote: | Crazy Finn wrote: | Robert Rowe wrote: | Usually, ultra-sound cleaning is (too?) expensive. You can do almost as good a cleaning, manually.
I understand these devices and the disposal cost several hundred dollars ... and, the repair tech / shop is looking to recoup that expense, as well as turn a profit.
But, WHY are these entities (techs / shops) still trying to recoup their expenses, well after their initial outlay has been recovered, many times over ?
~ r2 ~
deplorable horn-player
|
The ones in the local music repair shops can fit a tuba and cost in the low 5 figures rather than hundreds.
Also, techs don't work for free - not to mention the cost of owning or renting the space and paying the electric bill. |
This.
IMO, if someone believes that a music store (or any business) is price gouging for a service, there’s a perfect solution: don’t purchase the service. For anyone to arbitrarily declare what is or is not a fair price for something, with no exact knowledge of the business’s overhead, is unrealistic. Do some companies make unreasonable profits? Sure. But especially when we are talking about non essential services or products, it’s a free market, anyone can ask any price they want for anything, no one is being coerced to purchase it.
Brad |
Errrrr ... perhaps.
Fundamentally, I agree ... for the most part, with you. Me? ... I do not opt for goods or services I deem excessively costly.
Now ... ... how can one have an "exact knowledge of the business's overhead? ?
Many businesses are "fat". Too many percs ... excessive salaries ... extravagant fixtures, advertising, etc.
Look in the employee's parking lot ... observe the vehicles. Hondas / Toyotas / "plain-Jane" SUVs, pickup trucks ... or, BMWs / Benz's / high-end pickups ?
I'm not going to underwrite that kind of "overhead". Screw 'em.
I'll pay a FAIR PRICE (my idea of). Not some arbitrarily high figure.
Call me "thrifty" ... "frugal". But ... not CHEAP.
~ r2 ~
deplorable horn-(and other instruments) -player |
You’re correct, you can’t know the exact amount of any business’s overhead. I also believe that (in many, not all) cases, the owner who has the BMW or Mercedes in the parking lot probably did not have it when he started the business. What he probably had was a used Chevy, a very small salary his first year in business and 60+ hour weeks.
What we consider a “fair” price is subjective, we all have priorities. My girlfriend bought a 500.00 bed spread, but she balks at spending 1.25 for an iphone app. I would NEVER buy that bedspread, but 500.00 for some horn related thing? Probably. 200.00 for a bottle of wine, no way, 200.00 for a mouthpiece? Probably.
Opinions and priorities, we all have ‘em.
Guess I’ll stop steering the OP’s thread into the ditch now.😉
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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1jazzyalex Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Jun 2016 Posts: 569 Location: San Jose, CA
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Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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Hm, we're in the process of moving to another building but somewhere around here we've got an ultrasonic cleaner that's big enough to clean a trumpet in, I believe. The next time I see it I'll see if my trumpet can fit in it, and if it does, I may consider buying it for myself and then I'd have (nearly) free ultrasonic cleanings lol.
Edit: I caught sight of it again and it's not big enough. We're asking several hundred for it too, so it's not worth it for me to buy it personally.
I agree on a good hand-cleaning anyway; can do as well. _________________ Yamaha 8335LA with Blessing 3C, 5C, Schilke 11A4A |
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Robert Rowe Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2004 Posts: 5364 Location: Chincoteague, Virginia
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Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:40 am Post subject: |
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1jazzyalex wrote: |
I agree on a good hand-cleaning anyway; can do as well. |
BINGO !
98% of the time, that will do it.
Too many here on this site believe one needs to spend big-bucks to have a fine-playing horn.
I really don't get it.
Just wait until they tell you where to get a valve-job. Is if they think it's worth it to spend $400 on a $400 horn.
~ r2 ~
deplorable, erudite horn player _________________ ~ Love animals ... don't eat them. ~
I miss Genghis Khan .... |
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