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GEORGE LYMAN New Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2017 Posts: 5 Location: Santa Barbara , California
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Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:12 am Post subject: Tapered leadpipe for Flugelhorn |
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Any experience with tapered leadpipes for Flugelhorns ? Particularly , in regard to intonation . |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7012 Location: AZ
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Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:39 am Post subject: Re: Tapered leadpipe for Flugelhorn |
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GEORGE LYMAN wrote: | Any experience with tapered leadpipes for Flugelhorns ? Particularly , in regard to intonation . |
I once had a conversation with Byron Autrey that included a story about a Kanstul 1025 he prepped for Doc Severensen. Byron fashioned, not a tapered, but a stepped lead pipe/tuning bit for the horn. I don't really know what he meant by "stepped." He said it made the flugelhorn sound very trumpet like. There is a video on YouTube of Doc playing this horn and it is exactly as Byron described it. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:16 am Post subject: Re: Tapered leadpipe for Flugelhorn |
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shofarguy wrote: | GEORGE LYMAN wrote: | Any experience with tapered leadpipes for Flugelhorns ? Particularly , in regard to intonation . |
I once had a conversation with Byron Autrey that included a story about a Kanstul 1025 he prepped for Doc Severensen. Byron fashioned, not a tapered, but a stepped lead pipe/tuning bit for the horn. I don't really know what he meant by "stepped." He said it made the flugelhorn sound very trumpet like. There is a video on YouTube of Doc playing this horn and it is exactly as Byron described it. |
Interesting... Could "stepped" mean it was drilled in varying sizes of cylindrical bore (like the old Zottola backbores?)? |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7012 Location: AZ
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Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: Tapered leadpipe for Flugelhorn |
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TKSop wrote: | shofarguy wrote: | GEORGE LYMAN wrote: | Any experience with tapered leadpipes for Flugelhorns ? Particularly , in regard to intonation . |
I once had a conversation with Byron Autrey that included a story about a Kanstul 1025 he prepped for Doc Severensen. Byron fashioned, not a tapered, but a stepped lead pipe/tuning bit for the horn. I don't really know what he meant by "stepped." He said it made the flugelhorn sound very trumpet like. There is a video on YouTube of Doc playing this horn and it is exactly as Byron described it. |
Interesting... Could "stepped" mean it was drilled in varying sizes of cylindrical bore (like the old Zottola backbores?)? |
Great question. I have no idea how Byron did it. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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Ed Kennedy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 3187
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Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:41 pm Post subject: Re: Tapered leadpipe for Flugelhorn |
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TKSop wrote: | shofarguy wrote: | GEORGE LYMAN wrote: | Any experience with tapered leadpipes for Flugelhorns ? Particularly , in regard to intonation . |
I once had a conversation with Byron Autrey that included a story about a Kanstul 1025 he prepped for Doc Severensen. Byron fashioned, not a tapered, but a stepped lead pipe/tuning bit for the horn. I don't really know what he meant by "stepped." He said it made the flugelhorn sound very trumpet like. There is a video on YouTube of Doc playing this horn and it is exactly as Byron described it. |
Interesting... Could "stepped" mean it was drilled in varying sizes of cylindrical bore (like the old Zottola backbores?)? |
Or the Pilczuk leadpipe. |
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Flugelnut Veteran Member
Joined: 24 Jul 2004 Posts: 478 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:32 am Post subject: |
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The next week or so I'm planning to make a cylindrical mouthpipe for my 1978 vintage B&H Sovereign flugel.
The original mouthpipe is tapered: the mouthpiece receiving end (starting ID of 10.3 mm) has a small Morse taper for about 45.0 mm, at which point the internal ID is approx. 8.0 mm, the pipe then widens with a straight taper to its ending ID of 10.6 mm. The OD is 11.0 mm, total length is 125.0 mm.
I will use a 11.0/10.0 mm straight brass pipe, reinforced and reamed at one end to take the mouthpiece (DW4F, small Morse taper), so that it inserts exactly as far as in the original pipe.
Hopefully the pipe material is not too much of a factor: the original is nickel silver.
Can hardly wait to hear how it works out, I'll definitely report back. |
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Tony Scodwell Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2005 Posts: 1961
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Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:44 pm Post subject: Tapered pipe for flugel |
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I witnessed Byron's experiments with his tapered leadpipe for the flugelhorn and played more than a few notes on one...it didn't work. It sounded like a good idea, short leadpipe and all, but other than changing the sound quality the intonation was unaffected. I believe the earlier French makers had this figured out long ago and perhaps this is why you didn't see a tapered pipe on any of the legendary horns from France. I don't know this as fact but I would hazard a guess that Couesnon and others may have tried this long ago.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
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Flugelnut Veteran Member
Joined: 24 Jul 2004 Posts: 478 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:15 am Post subject: |
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Does anyone on this forum know what the inside of the GR/Melk replacement leadpipe for Couesnon and Olds flugels looks like: straight or tapered? |
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lipshurt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 2642 Location: vista ca
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Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:06 am Post subject: |
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The Yamaha shew pipe fits into the cousnon flugel, and it plays better. Or at least it did on mine, so I bought one and switched it. I had to sand it down very slightly so it would not be too tight.
It still was not as good as my friends stock cousnon though, which is amazing in sound, response, and intonation.
As I recall, (sold it) the Yamaha shew pipe was tapered not straight.
I also have a Yamaha 631 pipe here which is tapered. Totally different pipe though not interchangeable _________________ Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt |
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ChopsGone Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Dec 2008 Posts: 1793
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Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:18 am Post subject: |
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The GR/Melk leadpipe is tapered, at least the part we think of as the receiver. It accepts Morse taper mouthpieces, and can digest either small ("Bach" for some reason) or large ("Yamaha" for even less obvious reason), although with extremely deep mouthpieces such as the Flip Oakes extreme series, it has to be the large taper variety as the small taper ones will bottom out. If the question referred to the portion of the leadpipe past the part where the mouthpiece is inserted, I haven't tried to determine whether that's tapered or not. It works fine, so it doesn't matter to me. _________________ Vintage Olds & Reynolds & Selmers galore
Aubertins, Bessons, Calicchios, Courtois, Wild Things, Marcinkiewicz, Ogilbee Thumpet, DeNicola Puje, Kanstuls.... |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7012 Location: AZ
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Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:37 am Post subject: |
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On the question of replacement pipes and how it is one plays better than another, I have experienced where a brass pipe for a Kanstul Besson played better than a brass pipe made for a Kanstul 925. Both were French taper, both the same length, both yellow brass. The little ring around the end of each pipe was a bit different, but not enough to make me think they had an effect. The Besson produced a smoother, more predictable response.
Why? Both were drawn on the same straight mandrel by the same people from the same stock. Are the tubes directional because they are drawn? Do different lengths cut from the same stock end up different? _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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Flugelnut Veteran Member
Joined: 24 Jul 2004 Posts: 478 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:19 am Post subject: |
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I've mailed GR asking what the inside of their Couesnon, etc. leadpipe looks like. Curious....... |
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Flugelnut Veteran Member
Joined: 24 Jul 2004 Posts: 478 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:33 am Post subject: |
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GR's turnaround is exemplary, but they won't give specifics.
Can someone on this forum who has a GR pipe have a look down its back end and tell us if it's tapered or straight?
That's all I'd like to know. |
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USNABtpt New Member
Joined: 20 Feb 2018 Posts: 8 Location: Annapolis, MD
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Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:44 am Post subject: |
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#4 _________________ Dan Arute
United States Naval Academy Band |
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Flugelnut Veteran Member
Joined: 24 Jul 2004 Posts: 478 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:57 am Post subject: |
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I apologize for not earlier sharing my experience with the homemade cylindrical leadpipe for my B&H Sovereign flugel, of which the standard pipe is tapered.
Well: it is rather a fiasco. Intonation is like the standard pipe but response and in particular the sound are far worse.
The flugel with standard pipe has a rather small, but pleasant and centered sound: vintage Besson-ish if you want.
With the cylindrical pipe the sound lacks core and is rather rough around the edges.
I assume this (very small bore) horn was designed around this tapered pipe, just like most other flugels are designed with a straight pipe in mind.
Intersting experiment, though. |
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