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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10209 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:36 pm Post subject: Jazz Musicians Think Differently |
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Interesting subject explored here: https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-01-miles-davis-mozart-brains-jazz.amp _________________ Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
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1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
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Robert Rowe Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2004 Posts: 5364 Location: Chincoteague, Virginia
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Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:31 am Post subject: |
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This "finding" is not surprising to me.
I find many other differences between classically-trained musicians (like myself), and players that dwell in the jazz idiom.
~ r2 ~
deplorable horn player _________________ ~ Love animals ... don't eat them. ~
I miss Genghis Khan .... |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9834 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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trumpet.trader Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Jul 2017 Posts: 200
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Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:52 am Post subject: |
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Firstly this was hilarious. “Let’s go to the magic kingdom.....nah man it’s too early for me. I gotta drive” hahahahaha
Second, many people don’t know Mr Rogers earned a music and composition degree. He wrote and arranged a lot of the music for the show. And is a heck of a jazz pianist to boot.
I saw “Handy-Man”Joe Negri play at a jazz club in Shady Side (cool neighborhood in Pittsburgh) back in the 90s. He is a classy jazz player with great bebop vocab, and played standards all night. I was shocked at what a good player he is. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9193 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:56 am Post subject: |
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Regarding the OP, what about those of us who do both? Split personality? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"Well, even if I could play like Wynton, I wouldn't play like Wynton." Chet Baker
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Getzen Capri Cornet (for sale). |
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deleted_user_02066fd New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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I once read a statement that I believe was made by Thad Jones about the difference between a classical musician and a jazz musician. Not 100% sure it was Thad. The statement went something like this. A classical musician is taught to take directions while a jazz musician makes their own direction. |
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halfgreek12 Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Aug 2008 Posts: 201 Location: Albany, NY
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jharris2 Veteran Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2003 Posts: 172 Location: Arkansas
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Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:57 am Post subject: |
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halfgreek12 wrote: | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BomNG5N_E_0 |
This thread reminded me of that TED talk, too. Charles does a great job of experimenting and explaining the results. _________________ John
2014 Flip Oakes Wild Thing flugelhorn (copper bell)
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jazz_trpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Nov 2001 Posts: 5734 Location: Savoy, Illinois, USA
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Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:36 am Post subject: |
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Robert Rowe wrote: | I find many other differences between classically-trained musicians (like myself), and players that dwell in the jazz idiom. |
Without getting into the nitty-gritty of the study, it's intuitive to assume that musicians who operate in the jazz idiom (especially improvisors) are going to have to develop rather deep "wiring" for playing by ear, and for conceptualizing melodies and techniques for navigating harmony which is frequently richer than what one might be exposed to in classical music (at the theoretical level).
This kind of "wiring" is naturally going to show up in the way the brain lights up.
For folks interested in this topic, I'd like to recommend "This is Your Brain on Music" by Daniel Levitin:
http://daniellevitin.com/publicpage/books/this-is-your-brain-on-music/ _________________ Jeff Helgesen
Free jazz solo transcriptions! |
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LaTrompeta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 May 2015 Posts: 880 Location: West Side, USA
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Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:49 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | Regarding the OP, what about those of us who do both? Split personality? |
Completely! _________________ Please join me as well at:
https://trumpetboards.com |
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TrumpetMD Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2008 Posts: 2437 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:04 am Post subject: |
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These functional brain studies (EEGs or MRIs) tend to provide anecdotal results with unsupported conclusions that are often overstated by the the press.
That being said, I agree that different types of playing requires different cognitive and neuromuscular skills.
Mike _________________ Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
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Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns.
Last edited by TrumpetMD on Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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bamajazzlady Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2011 Posts: 691
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Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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Are studies like this one the reason why people said/say that Jazz is intellectual w/regards to creating and listening to it? _________________ "Nobody can go back and start a new beginning, but anyone can start today and make a new ending." - Maria Robinson |
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jazz_trpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Nov 2001 Posts: 5734 Location: Savoy, Illinois, USA
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Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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bamajazzlady wrote: | Are studies like this one the reason why people said/say that Jazz is intellectual w/regards to creating and listening to it? |
I would say that listening to jazz and improvising sometimes (often?) force the musician to "use some different muscles" than folks that play classical repetoire exclusively.
I wouldn't fall into the trap of labeling one more or less "intellectual" than the other. It's just different.
Just my $0.02. _________________ Jeff Helgesen
Free jazz solo transcriptions! |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5706 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:04 am Post subject: |
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I experienced something interesting after I started getting comfortable as a drummer.
When I first started drumming, I'd try to cover the drum part of the tune we were covering stroke for stroke, or as closely as I could to it, which was stressful and frustrating. As I got further along, I started finding my own style and way of doing things, within context of course, and that's when it started to have such a big impact on my trumpet playing. I believe that comes from a difference in approach to the two instruments, which is drastically different.
As a trumpet player, I'm not into improvising - I'm not comfortable doing it, and I've never delved too far into it, so as a result, almost everything I play on the trumpet is read off of the page.
As a drummer, although I can pick apart and read a drum kit chart, I rarely play that way. I learn the song form, and create my own loose part around that - I know what grooves I'm going to play, and I know where transition points and basic hits are going to be, but I don't plan fills - that all flows in the moment. There is a lot of musical freedom for me as a drummer, but there is also a lot more responsibility - as the drummer, it's up to me to set tempo, volume, general feel, and to musically "move" the tune where it's going to go.
What I noticed was how it affected my phrasing on trumpet, and IMO, I became a much more musical player, or at least it came more naturally. Of course this all could just be anecdotal - the one may not have anything to do with the other and it could just be as a natural maturation due to time and age, but to me it seems and feels connected.
Bringing this all around to the subject of the thread, it makes sense to me that a jazz musician is going to have a much different mental approach to the horn than a classical musician, and FWIW, it would probably be of great benefit to those who consider themselves to be "classical" players if they started to dig into learning to play improvisational jazz. _________________ Patrick Gleason
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9193 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:17 am Post subject: |
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I'm sill looking for an answer to what if you do both? Is your thinking different depending on what you're playing at the moment, or does the brain work in one-at-a-time or simultaneously modes? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"Well, even if I could play like Wynton, I wouldn't play like Wynton." Chet Baker
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Croquethed Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2013 Posts: 629 Location: Oakville, CT
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:18 am Post subject: |
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I totally agree, trickg. And it needn't be difficult or even "jazz," actually.
Neither skill set should be minimized, BTW. It takes a very high level of skill to be able to read and play a sheet full of 16th notes in A flat, for example.
It takes another skill set to take a fairly simple and popular song - let's take Bob Dylan's "You Ain't Going Nowhere," for example, that sounds good in D minor for Bb instruments - and fashioning a short solo of eighth and quarter notes off the melody.
It may be that better comprehension of the improv side may improve the speed at which one can play that challenging sheet of music eventually, because you'll have a more instinctive knowledge of the road from A to B. |
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Turkle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2008 Posts: 2450 Location: New York City
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:27 am Post subject: |
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I'm going to disagree with the premise. I think that the esteemed Mr. Keith Jarrett is incorrect, as quoted in the article.
I was a classical-only musician until my early 20's, at which time I switched over 100% to the dark side and played only jazz, including improvisation.
I suggest that the two disciplines are not at all as far apart as we might like to believe. I can tell you that an experienced classical musician is just as in the moment, playing according to the unique demands of the setting, the audience, the room, the time of day, and the responses and vibe of the musicians (s)he's playing with, as a jazz musician. There's this unfortunate idea that proper classical playing demands performing a piece the same way every time. Nothing could be further from the truth. Rather, a classical musician is alive to the possibilities inherent in the piece for spontaneous expression, and will play according to the demands of the moment.
If this sounds similar to the way we would approach a jazz improvisation, that's no accident. Both disciplines require a combination of adherence to form and spontaneous expression. The idea that jazz affects one's brain in a way that classical does not seems to me totally silly.
I would suggest that what the brain monitors in the linked article are measuring is simply the particular skill those musicians are comfortable with, (e.g. one has practiced disciplined piano fingering and the other has practiced alternate chord voicings) not an entirely different brain-mechanism for improvisation.
All musical performance demands both adherence to form and spontaneous expression. There is no contradiction at the neurological level between classical and jazz performance, even if they do rely on different musical techniques. _________________ Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
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halfgreek12 Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Aug 2008 Posts: 201 Location: Albany, NY
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:29 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | I'm sill looking for an answer to what if you do both? Is your thinking different depending on what you're playing at the moment, or does the brain work in one-at-a-time or simultaneously modes? |
In the TED talk I posted above there are brain scans of the musician playing memorized music vs scans of the same musician playing improvised music.
Steve |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9193 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:33 am Post subject: |
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Am I looking at this simplistically? It doesn't mean to me that we "think differently" rather that we merely use some different skills at different times. Is this really that earth shattering? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"Well, even if I could play like Wynton, I wouldn't play like Wynton." Chet Baker
Adams A-9 Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Getzen Capri Cornet (for sale). |
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jazz_trpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Nov 2001 Posts: 5734 Location: Savoy, Illinois, USA
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:38 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | I'm sill looking for an answer to what if you do both? Is your thinking different depending on what you're playing at the moment, or does the brain work in one-at-a-time or simultaneously modes? |
I can't speak for anyone but myself, but if I'm playing non-jazz repertoire off the page (e.g., a non-independent part in a large ensemble), I approach it completely differently. I don't have to listen to how the drummer is setting up the swing feel. I don't typically have to listen to the acoustic bass to monitor where I am in the form. So right there, those "muscles" are relaxed and I have other processes working in "the front of the brain".
Ditto for playing in a concert band or chamber ensemble or symphonic setting. I'm spending a lot of time counting and a good deal more time trying to coordinate interpretation of what I'm seeing from a conductor (or person leading a small ensemble) with what I'm hearing from the larger ensemble.
So to answer your question (for me, anyway), I really feel like jazz and non-jazz require somewhat different mental approaches, and I treat them appropriately (and use whatever "meta" musical concepts that transcend both as needed regardless).
Croquethed wrote: | Neither skill set should be minimized, BTW. |
This is absolutely true. To be excellent at either (let alone both) requires significant dedication and rigor. And finding ways to generalize the skills over both approaches just makes you a better player all around. _________________ Jeff Helgesen
Free jazz solo transcriptions! |
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