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MikeyMike
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Irving wrote:
You are saying that air flow is independent of air quantity then? You still need air fow for high notes, but the quantity of air used will be less than for low notes.


Whenever these sort of discussions come up there is one thing which should never be overlooked:

There is considerable amount of research indicating that what players "think" they are doing while playing a given note is not at all what they are actually doing when playing that note.
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MikeyMike
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Irving wrote:
You are saying that air flow is independent of air quantity then? You still need air fow for high notes, but the quantity of air used will be less than for low notes.


Another point...

Easy enough to put this one to bed. Put a balloon over the bell of your instrument. See how long it takes to fill it up when playing a low note and compare that to how long it takes to fill it when playing a higher one.
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MikeyMike
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And a couple more...

Is it bass notes that rattle the walls or high notes? Who here thinks the high frequency notes move more air than the low notes?

Who here thinks a tiny canary with its little cheeps moves more air than a couple of 6,000 HP railroad locomotives rumbling down the tracks as they lug a million tons of coal?

Anyone here own (or heard) a bi-amped, tri-amped or multi-amped stereo system? (That's where separate power amps are used for specific frequency ranges.) I've heard one system with NINE discrete frequency ranges of sound reproduction in each stereo channel - id est NINE SETS of loudspeakers, one set for each of NINE frequency ranges and NINE separate amplifiers, one for each set of speakers.

Anyone here want to guess which takes more power at the same volume, the >10,000Hz ultra-tweeters or the 30" diameter subwoofer?
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MikeyMike wrote:
Irving wrote:
You are saying that air flow is independent of air quantity then? You still need air fow for high notes, but the quantity of air used will be less than for low notes.


Whenever these sort of discussions come up there is one thing which should never be overlooked:

There is considerable amount of research indicating that what players "think" they are doing while playing a given note is not at all what they are actually doing when playing that note.


talk about making an important point.
when i play i am trying to roll out but do not do this to a ridiculous or comical degree except for the pedal register. right now i am working on getting the same feeling for each time the lips go into the mouthpiece. in the scheme of playing notes the lips make their subtle contractions and no doubt adjust roll one way or the other. it isn't just a 'one thing' type of experience.
as playing is going along reasonably well with progress being made i figure a more consistent feel for lip position in the mouthpiece will work itself out in time. it's not a large issue just one of the things you feel could be better and should yield a better feel for how the lips are set and exactly how much roll out is called for.
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuck in ny wrote:
MikeyMike wrote:
Irving wrote:
You are saying that air flow is independent of air quantity then? You still need air fow for high notes, but the quantity of air used will be less than for low notes.


Whenever these sort of discussions come up there is one thing which should never be overlooked:

There is considerable amount of research indicating that what players "think" they are doing while playing a given note is not at all what they are actually doing when playing that note.


talk about making an important point.
when i play i am trying to roll out but do not do this to a ridiculous or comical degree except for the pedal register. right now i am working on getting the same feeling for each time the lips go into the mouthpiece. in the scheme of playing notes the lips make their subtle contractions and no doubt adjust roll one way or the other. it isn't just a 'one thing' type of experience.
as playing is going along reasonably well with progress being made i figure a more consistent feel for lip position in the mouthpiece will work itself out in time. it's not a large issue just one of the things you feel could be better and should yield a better feel for how the lips are set and exactly how much roll out is called for.


I believe that what happens when a trumpet player alters his lip and/or facial muscle movement or position is that he is consciously or sub consciously trying to identify an embouchure condition or movement which is more favorable to his technique. Usually that part of the technique which affects ranfe, power or endurance. However it may also include adjusting for better tone or articulation. Some embouchure conditions make it harder or easier to tongue accurately and fast.

It is my belief that this search for more favorable lip positioning be it rolling in or out and a host of other conditions could possibly be predicted based upon an actualindepth examination of the individual's lip, gums and teeth. As to why I believe this?

My answer would be too involved but this is a way or path we probably ought to consider.

That and continuing to study embouchure and air support function.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:35 pm    Post subject: Re: lip compression Reply with quote

chuck in ny wrote:
i wish there was some zen approach that would work for me, where you move the air just so, accelerate the air column, and then the upper register would emerge without effort.


I don't know how "zen" this is, but I can tell you that when I am playing a full power G above High C, though my corners are tighter, my tongue is arched up and forward, and I am blowing pretty much as hard as I can, I sense no "lip compression" in the middle of my embouchure - it feels to me that my lips (aka aperture) are just as open and far apart on that G above High C as they are when playing middle G in the staff. #nolipcompressionatall #relaxedinthemiddle

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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
John wrote:
Quote:
When we reach the highest notes we can play we are blowing with nearly all our strength, with our highest note requiring our maximum air pressure capabilities.


Incorrect assumption.

The blowing effort is not what limits your range. One can play quite high pitches using only a fraction of their blowing strength.


Yes, one can play a soft, very high note with less air pressure than a full power note that is lower than it. But still, the highest note one can play will require that player's maximum air pressure. If he or she could blow harder, he or she would be able to reach a higher note (assuming the player had the knack or feel - the coordination aspect - of how to play that higher note).

I have yet to meet any trumpet player capable of playing full power notes in the G above High C and higher range who is not creating enormous levels of air pressure, and every legitimate research study I've ever read confirms this. Of course, there is no doubt that there are big, strong players with extraordinary levels of blowing strength who can't play above the staff due to faulty embouchures, or more likely, incorrect use of the tongue levels.

It has been shown over and over, first by Arnold Jacobs and then by several University Research Studies that each octave climb on a brass instrument at a given volume of sound requires an approximate doubling of the supplied air pressure. As Renold Schilke pointed out, though many people think lip strength is the most important aspect to good playing, most people can keep their lips closed and hold back the air when blowing as hard as they can, disproving this idea (for the record, I no longer can, as my air power is developed to well above average levels - but at the time I first read what Schilke said, I found it to be true).

References:

http://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/music/people/publications/Fletcheretal1999.pdf

http://everythingtrumpet.com/schilke/Master%20Class.html

When a player reaches his highest full power note, he can play notes that are higher by trading volume of sound for range. That's why we all have our highest full power note, and then find we can usually squeak notes to perhaps 1/3 to 1/2 an octave higher but at greatly reduced volume of sound.
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tim_wolf
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

drewwilkie86 wrote:
Keep in mind, very little air is flowing through the horn, even when playing loudly in the upper register, when the embouchure is working efficiently.


In the mid-eighties while at a brass conference in NYC, I was conversing (in the stairwell!) with Jerry Callet. He did a demonstration that blew me away. He played a loud, and I mean loud, double C on just the mouthpiece. He told me to put the palm of my hand right in front of the shank of the mouthpiece while he was playing, and I could not feel ANY air coming out.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But still, the highest note one can play will require that player's maximum air pressure


That is not the case for myself. I play up to the highest note that will speak at times when doing ascending harmonic exercises. While they do require significant pressure. It is not my maximum.

Generally players run low of embouchure skill long before they run low of air pressure.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mikey wrote:
Quote:
Anyone here want to guess which takes more power at the same volume, the >10,000Hz ultra-tweeters or the 30" diameter subwoofer?


While this has little bearing on the trumpet range in question, you can not conclude that air displacement alone is related to power. In a resonant system, impedance does have some bearing on the air "movement" vs air pressure.

I will also point out that your audio examples that include the lowest frequency of audible sounds can be misleading from a power standpoint. Yes low frequency transducers require far more power input. Reason being that the human ear frequency response rolls off progressively and drastically as frequency is progressively lower.

I did also mention that the trumpet has some variation in impedance on the various harmonic resonances. This means that the pressure/flow ratio will vary some between the various harmonics. Different equipment also has effect on impedance.

The low C (and below) also fall in to the range of diminished hearing response compared to higher octaves. While you may have a certain SPL on a meter, the low C will likely require more power to achieve the same perceived loudness level as for a high C. The low C also has less acoustic impedance than the high C which requires slightly more air flow (and less pressure) for comparable power.

But players also vary in efficiency of tone production which affects the air flow and air pressure requirements.

And as I wrote before, even 100 percent efficiency does not eliminate the requirement of air flow for notes.

Also, in the course of performing, the high pitches are typically played louder than the low ones. This effects our actual air flow consideration comparison in a practical sense.
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tptguy
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

<<Generally players run low of embouchure skill long before they run low of air pressure>>

Great to see this post. Jerry Callet woke me up to this definite truth a number of years ago, as he has done for many thousands of others. Great, powerful players like Harry James, Maynard Ferguson, Charlie Shavers, Roy Eldridge, and Horst Fischer continued to be great, powerful players well after physical abuse and increasing age sapped their air power. Jerry Callet had massively powerful high range at 50. It was more powerful still at 70. Jerry didn't defy logic, he applied it.

As Jens Lindemann preaches, don't work on wrestling notes to the ground. That's the wrong direction. Search out that rare teacher that can demonstrate both embouchure skill and a clear ability to teach it. "Blow harder" - that's a crutch, it's not a solution.
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i didn't mean to start this thread by way of carping or being stuck in some rut. playing is going well and small issues and adjustments are always made and examined keeping what works and has use.
full use of the intuition is your best friend. people will pick up the horn on some lucky day and mysteriously have gained a couple of partials only to lose the ability as quickly as it came and revert to their usual. their intuition had crept through for just a moment and automatically adjusted their flaws. it is not obvious at all that this is the case and many will bitterly argue this point. being friendly to the argument however, you will find a corner of the unconscious mind that understands better technique and how to overcome whatever mistakes you are making, and this is there to be developed and accessed. smooth mental functioning including coordination of the left/right brain cooperation comes easily for a tiny portion of us and has to be worked on and nurtured for most of us. the 'seek and ye shall find' advice from back in the day suggests that it's possible to find information of any difficulty level.
what is most fascinating to me as a player is the role of strength in sound production. it isn't olympic lifting but good players are very well developed.
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been having GREAT success lately rolling out my lower lip in order to get strong DHCs. The setting is the same as playing a super soft Low C. This is a concept I most recently heard from Mark Zauss. Pops and others teach the same thing but say it slightly differently. For Pops it’s the aperture tunnel buzzing, from Lynn Nicholson it’s more of an upper range roll out.

For me, the super soft Low C requires a little lower lip pout or roll out and a slight firming of the muscles under the lower lip. With that setting DHC is huge for me and all the other notes are easier. I am working to keep that setting more and more.

Not sure this will work for everyone, but it is the answer for me at my current level of development.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Generally players run low of embouchure skill long before they run low of air pressure.


Very good point and very true. I should have made it clearer I was thinking of players who had their embouchure and tongue levels functioning correctly when I wrote that air power tends to be the limiting factor. And I admit, those players are in the minority.

The upper register takes to things: Strength and coordination (the "knack" or "feel"). But I think it's important to realize that we cannot develop the feel of how to do something we haven't already developed the strength to do.
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shakuhachi
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
wish there was some zen approach that would work for me, where you move the air just so, accelerate the air column, and then the upper register would emerge without effort.


…”zen like approch” equals “MHM” - for those who are not familiar with this shortcut: Mindless Hardware Methodology; originated by Lynn Nicholson.

…it is so hard to overcome mind – look at the most responses here…

All what was responded here on the subject was said so often – it only reflects the minds of the arguers (me included!) - but great posts anyway!

At the beginning of my musical devotion in my early years – which was first introduced to me by playing guitar and singing, later playing flute and shakuhachi (japanese bamboo flute) as well, and currently playing trumpet (all directed to Jazz at the end) – I encountered some poems by Sri Chinmoy given on the cover of John Mclaughlin’s unplugged “My Goals beyond” including the three famous words: LOVE-DEVOTION-SURRENDER; here my take on that reading:

LOVE…..the overall motivation for anything in life

DEVOTION……the only worth habit to follow that motivation on any subject one encounters in life

SURRENDER…..don’t fight life or anything in life included

Transposed to trumpet playing:

LOVE….you found music? You are nearest to LOVE!

DEVOTION…you found trumpet as a tool for music? Remember: it is only a tool, a habit to encounter music – nothing more, but worth for facilitating your devotion to music for sure.

SURRENDER… don’t fight your tool – relax - if a battle or some struggling appears, remember: it is only the mind begging for attention – fair enough!

After giving great thanks for the originators of BE, CG, SC, BA, CS, MHM and all other “nnn’s” not mentioned…

..the overall best approach to life is BALANCE and HOMEOSTASIS and keep it simple and have fun!

If you found the above, share it to all.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wonderful sentiments shak. I agree. Thanks for sharing! Best, Lex
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rothman
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tim_wolf wrote:

He did a demonstration that blew me away. He played a loud, and I mean loud, double C on just the mouthpiece. He told me to put the palm of my hand right in front of the shank of the mouthpiece while he was playing, and I could not feel ANY air coming out.


Other than a few singular comments, there has never been much of a thread discussion centered around flow characteristics with respect to loud Dbl C's, other than the point made...precious little air goes into the trumpet.
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shakuhachi wrote:
Quote:
wish there was some zen approach that would work for me, where you move the air just so, accelerate the air column, and then the upper register would emerge without effort.


…”zen like approch” equals “MHM” - for those who are not familiar with this shortcut: Mindless Hardware Methodology; originated by Lynn Nicholson.

…it is so hard to overcome mind – look at the most responses here…

All what was responded here on the subject was said so often – it only reflects the minds of the arguers (me included!) - but great posts anyway!

At the beginning of my musical devotion in my early years – which was first introduced to me by playing guitar and singing, later playing flute and shakuhachi (japanese bamboo flute) as well, and currently playing trumpet (all directed to Jazz at the end) – I encountered some poems by Sri Chinmoy given on the cover of John Mclaughlin’s unplugged “My Goals beyond” including the three famous words: LOVE-DEVOTION-SURRENDER; here my take on that reading:

LOVE…..the overall motivation for anything in life

DEVOTION……the only worth habit to follow that motivation on any subject one encounters in life

SURRENDER…..don’t fight life or anything in life included

Transposed to trumpet playing:

LOVE….you found music? You are nearest to LOVE!

DEVOTION…you found trumpet as a tool for music? Remember: it is only a tool, a habit to encounter music – nothing more, but worth for facilitating your devotion to music for sure.

SURRENDER… don’t fight your tool – relax - if a battle or some struggling appears, remember: it is only the mind begging for attention – fair enough!

After giving great thanks for the originators of BE, CG, SC, BA, CS, MHM and all other “nnn’s” not mentioned…

..the overall best approach to life is BALANCE and HOMEOSTASIS and keep it simple and have fun!

If you found the above, share it to all.



well. that's a large glob of zen right there. the deal with the trumpet is that while there are a lot of things you are doing to produce sound, you then have to get your mind off that to produce the 'mindless' or intuitive state.
repetitive practice of lip flexibilities is one very good way i have found to allow the switch to be thrown. i am not getting there quickly in this endeavor but i am getting there.
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me tell you how an INTJ approaches all this:

LOVE…no. ACHIEVEMENT. I enjoy playing trumpet well. It is hard to play well and that is what makes the achievement enjoyable.

DEVOTION…no. DISCIPLINE. It takes disciplined effort to achieve a high level of performance on trumpet.

SURRENDER…..no. CONTROL. It’s only when I am fully in control of all aspects of my playing that I can play at a high level and enjoy the achievement.


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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

come on there blaine. you plug very hard doubtless but you picked up the horn because you <loved> it and were dazzled by it. it is however a knife fight all the way and in such circumstances love is not the first thing that comes to mind.
i find the difficulty compelling. there is nothing in life to compare with the satisfaction of dealing with a long standing endeavor. it isn't a musical beat but a wave form of enormous length.
i INTJ my way through as you do. it's a good fight. a person stays with it.
in the midst of all the struggle and control, in the interstices of things, that's where a little zen can creep in from time to time.
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