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Monette B2S3/B4s


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windandsong
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:39 pm    Post subject: Monette B2S3/B4s Reply with quote

Hi All

So I was on a gig the other night with a very talented up and coming trumpet player here in London and in our warm up couldn't help noticing the depth and warmth of his sound. He's also a competent lead player and was spitting out high notes with great precision and warmth throughout the gig, not a screamer.

Anyway we chatted after the gig and I asked him what he was playing on and he said he was on the aforementioned Monette which he reckoned was 3c equivalent but which was tiring him out. I'd never played one of these pieces in 30 odd years of playing (not sure they've been around that long anyway) and asked if I could have a go. Of course the difference was very real and I have not played a single piece that was that warm and produced such a certain 'kind' of sound to my ears. It has a very strange brassy texture which I can only describe as 'idiosyncratic".

So the trombone section were raving and saying Gabe you HAVE to get one you sound way good etc etc and we'd had beer or two. Hmm

So I came home and checked these pieces, sure they're not 3c equivalent they are way bigger by the looks.

I am however intrigued and have been hovering on Ebay. Are they going to kill my endurance that much? One would suspect yes and the trade off is not worth it for the sound this thing can generate? However when I put the thing to my lips, off the horn it did feel very good and I'm already used to playing on GP rims.

So, the real deal. I've been playing on a vintage Giardinelli 6m for the last three or four years but in the past 6 months have come to the conclusion that I am not generating enough tone despite having commercial success with it and not moving off, I've recently bought a 6c equivalent and while that feels a bit bigger it doesn't feel all that great. Also I think I am blowing too hard on my 6m because it is simply too shallow and in many ways to generate enough sound I am actually wearing myself out.

Clearly I have been blinded by a Monette light but rather than sack it all off and call it useless romanticism I feel there could be something achieved here as I rarely move mouthpieces unless somebody I really trust suggests it.

An obvious move would be a B6 but I'm wondering if that would be worth it? I think a Giardinelli 6m is akin to a Bach 2c and people say if you go to Monette go to a bigger size.

What are your thoughts ye great people of experience? I cannot go back to Bach to get a bigger sound, their C cups just don't seem to give me the right kind of contact with the instrument anymore. I always end up feeling hollow.

Is the B2s3 a ludicrous choice if I'm not used to playing on big pieces?!

I am jazz and commercial player by trade btw with the occasional into foray into classical. There is no massive need to blend. Saying that the Monette sounds seems VERY different to me.

Answers on a postcard, I'm in London.

G
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Last edited by windandsong on Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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snichols
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're used to a 3C sized piece, a B2S3 is probably going to tire you out a bit, because you're adding cup/rim size AND a more open throat/BB. The B2 is closer to a 1.25C. If you stick to the 3C-sized B6 you might have a little adjustment, but it shouldn't tire you out that much more than a normal 3C, especially if you already play on gold rims. I've never heard this "go bigger" on Monette idea, but I wouldn't do that. If you like how they sound try one out in a size close to what you're used to. I played a B6 for a while and I liked it better than a Bach 3C personally. Ended up not being my ideal size rim, so I've gone on to other things.
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trumpetchops
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want the "Monette sound" I would get one that's comfortable. I wouldn't go bigger unless you think the one you use now is too small. When I switched to Monette, I tried to match the size as close as possible.

As far as the Monette sound, I love it. It takes a little while to get used to the mouthpiece. It's way more open than the usual.

As far as endurance, I'm not sure. I thought I was getting tired too soon because of equipment so I started experimenting. I have a lot of Monette trumpets and Bach trumpets and Bach mouthpieces. After really changing and using so many different combinations, I don't think it's an equipment thing. Once you're used to the more open blow, it's all the same. Maybe you last longer because the pitch is really good.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cut to the chase, Dave Monette knows his onions and his pieces so give him a bell and talk it through.
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windandsong
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetchops wrote:


As far as the Monette sound, I love it. It takes a little while to get used to the mouthpiece. It's way more open than the usual.

A


Hi Joe. What do you play and why?

Something like a B4s is looking to be a lot more sensible I think. My guy was complaining for a reason I think.

G
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trumpetchops
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

windandsong wrote:
trumpetchops wrote:


As far as the Monette sound, I love it. It takes a little while to get used to the mouthpiece. It's way more open than the usual.

A


Hi Joe. What do you play and why?

Something like a B4s is looking to be a lot more sensible I think. My guy was complaining for a reason I think.

G


My Bach was a 1B. I went to a B15M Which is really close. I also have a B4LDS something for lead. I didn't pick it. They sent it with a trumpet and it works so, I use it.
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breden
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I played on the B and C 4LDS and they are comparable to roughly an old Bach 3D size. They worked really well for me and I got the same rim made for picc and flugel. The throat and backbore shape is another consideration to be aware of when selecting any mouthpiece of course - especially Monette.
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having had a quick play on a B6, I found the 4 series mouthpeices quite unpleasant to play on - and eventually found one which works for me - 3 series. It's about a 1 1/2C, so much so I can move between my Monette, Bach 1 1/2C, etc. But, I just play on the Mpnettes.

Paired with the right trumpet, they do seem to sound amazing...

cheers

Andy
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jaysonr
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want something that has a "Bach 3" feel, but a sound more like the B2S3 than what you'll get w/ a B6S1, check out a B6DS1, the "D" stands for "deep" (not to be confused w/ B6LDS1 which is shallower).
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

snichols wrote:
I've never heard this "go bigger" on Monette idea, but I wouldn't do that.


I have some old Monette literature from back in the day. In it, Dave recommends when switching to Monette mouthpieces chosing a mouthpiece one size bigger than what is already being used. The idea was to help the player relax down into the pitch center and open up the sound.

I took a gander and noticed he doesn't mention this anywhere on his website (that I could find); maybe after further R&D, his improvements in design made such a change unmecessary.
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windandsong
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your comments people.

The reason for the massive volume of tone on the B2S3 then would have a lot to do with the throat and back bore by the sounds of things. You couldn't get a sound like that just from a big cup with a load of padding I think.

So I will have to go to a store and try some I guess. Be great if they weren't so expensive. Be even greater just to find something second hand on line.

Keep your comments coming if you have any this all really really useful to me. These mouthpieces seem to have quite a dedicated following, they are not flash in the pan stuff even though they are very different.

I have reached a point in my career where I can honestly say I am not getting or hearing a sound from the horn that is remotely akin to 'me' and I know it's not the horn. Never really felt that before. Feel I can achieve this with the right piece.

Cheers

G
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GordonH
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suspect it might be too big for you, coming from where you currently are.
I used to play a B1-5M and I had a teacher who felt this was way too big for me. He played a B2 so he loaned me one and I couldn't make it work for me at all. I think you might get some of the benefits you want from a B6, and as these are quite common you should be able to get a used one easily and sell it on for not much of a loss if it doesn't work.
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snichols
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GordonH wrote:
as these are quite common you should be able to get a used one easily and sell it on for not much of a loss if it doesn't work.


If any loss at all. Because of their price, I think second-hand is the best way to try them. You can buy a standard one, try it for a few weeks, and probably resell it for the same price. If you buy one new, you will take a decent loss when you turn around to sell it.
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windandsong
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes people, just finding one I guess.

There's a B4s on ebay but for some reason ebay will not let me buy it!

I guess a B6 is going to be a common 'want' for many players being close to a 3c.

Any thoughts on a B4s are welcome as I may be able to find a way to purchase the thing and it's 140? Akin to MV 3c apparently, so somewhere between a 3c and a 1 1/2C? I could probably deal with that.

G
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jhahntpt
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I play a B2S3 and like it. I have a C2GS3 for my C trumpet that I like a little more which has a slightly bigger cup. It is definitely larger than a 3C, but it honestly doesn't feel that big. I came from 1.25 ish mouthpieces that were a great deal harder to play. I have found the Monette mouthpieces to be significantly more efficient than the other stuff I played so the effort feels more natural and like I'm getting out what I'm putting in.
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jcathey
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a B2S3 that I'm playing, and I like it too. I was playing a no-name 1.25C that seemed to really work for me, and then I bought a horn that came with a Monette BL. It was intriguing, but just a bit small. So I did some homework and sought out a used B2S3, so far so good.
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tpt_Guy wrote:
snichols wrote:
I've never heard this "go bigger" on Monette idea, but I wouldn't do that.


I have some old Monette literature from back in the day. In it, Dave recommends when switching to Monette mouthpieces chosing a mouthpiece one size bigger than what is already being used. The idea was to help the player relax down into the pitch center and open up the sound.

I took a gander and noticed he doesn't mention this anywhere on his website (that I could find); maybe after further R&D, his improvements in design made such a change unmecessary.


Ok, found it:

https://www.monette.net/single-post/2007/02/06/How-to-select-a-Monette-mouthpiece

It's an article from 2007. I remembered it wrong. He didn't say "one size larger" but said "at least a little bit larger."
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snichols
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tpt_Guy wrote:
Tpt_Guy wrote:
snichols wrote:
I've never heard this "go bigger" on Monette idea, but I wouldn't do that.


I have some old Monette literature from back in the day. In it, Dave recommends when switching to Monette mouthpieces chosing a mouthpiece one size bigger than what is already being used. The idea was to help the player relax down into the pitch center and open up the sound.

I took a gander and noticed he doesn't mention this anywhere on his website (that I could find); maybe after further R&D, his improvements in design made such a change unmecessary.


Ok, found it:

https://www.monette.net/single-post/2007/02/06/How-to-select-a-Monette-mouthpiece

It's an article from 2007. I remembered it wrong. He didn't say "one size larger" but said "at least a little bit larger."


I can't help but wonder how much of that was marketing. Ie. get people to play on a bigger piece and watch as they're amazed at their increased sound and flexibility... Idk, I don't really buy into the whole "playing lower on the pitch" concept anyway, since I did that through grad school and I think it actually hindered my ability to play in the resonant part of the pitch. I honestly do like Monette mouthpieces and think they're good if you want to achieve that sound, but I've never really bought into the alleged "system" you are supposed to adopt to play them.
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

snichols wrote:

I can't help but wonder how much of that was marketing. Ie. get people to play on a bigger piece and watch as they're amazed at their increased sound and flexibility... Idk, I don't really buy into the whole "playing lower on the pitch" concept anyway, since I did that through grad school and I think it actually hindered my ability to play in the resonant part of the pitch. I honestly do like Monette mouthpieces and think they're good if you want to achieve that sound, but I've never really bought into the alleged "system" you are supposed to adopt to play them.



I know what you mean - in some ways I tend to think the biggest problem with Monette stuff is you're on a bit of a knife-edge, it's really easy to wind up just a little out of line and you can get really punished by it if/when that happens... the sound can be magical in a way you don't always find elsewhere, but at the same time the experience can be so intense that unless you're well along the line with them it'd be easy to be more focused on playing mechanics than on music - there has to be a dedication to that journey to arrive a place where the two might meet... and that might not be everyone's choice.
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

May be marketing in some aspect. After all, any promotion of a product is marketing.

But trying to play "on the pitch center" on equipment that isn't properly matched and balanced is tough and will not yield the best results. The last brand of mpcs I played had good sound and flexibility for me but as my playing evolved and I started applying a more relaxed approach, I found that I was actually very tight in the upper register. I didn't actually notice this until I tried a totally custom mouthpiece my buddy bought secondhand. After playing it for a couple weeks, I couldn't go back. No, I didn't want to. The ease and relaxation added a fourth to my upper register and the sound rang out like no one's business.

I found that mouthpiece to be amazing on Bb, but so-so on C, so my search continued and I settled on an unlikely candidate: A Kanstul copy of a Schilke 14 (itself basically a BMV 1-1/2C copy) matched to a Bach 117 backbore with a 24 throat. I can do everything on C with it that I could on Bb with the other custom piece.

On both pieces, I can relax and play more centered on the pitch (maybe not perfectly) and get a sound I enjoy.

Why don't I play Monette if I basically apply the same approach? After spending quite a bit of time working with them I found I couldn't get the sound I was after, which is the most important part. Might it be different if I had a Monette horn and mouthpiece? Sure, but it's an expensive test I can't afford.

So all this said, I think Monette's playing approach is great and can even help those who may not play his equipment to select the best equipment they can. It's helped me so far.
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