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3C VS 7C


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DaveH
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:07 pm    Post subject: 3C VS 7C Reply with quote

I don't mean to start a redundant mouthpiece conversation. And, I am not a professional, "making a living on trumpet" player. Perhaps if I were such, I wouldn't have this issue. And, I am not a specialist - not a screamer - not an orchestral player - just general purpose playing.

However, some thoughts might help me get a better grip on this topic as it relates to me personally.

I grew up playing a Bach 1 1/4C. For many years.

Several years ago, I began to have some embouchure problems that were "diagnosed" as playing with too open an embouchure setting, and lips collapsing into the cup and difficulty making a sound. With some "coaching", I developed the lips together, "MMMM" formation. This almost immediately solved my playing problems and improved just about everything else.

At that time, I wanted to downsize the mouthpiece, since I thought that the 1 1/4C that I had been using for a long time might be too big and contributing to the lips being blown apart.

So, I went to a Bach 3C. Good mouthpiece; nice tone, comfort, volume, and flexibility, but I have never been completely sure of the reliability of attacks and articulation that are produced for me by that rim. Articulation and control are just not quite as precise. Tone is not quite as centered and sometimes a little "woofy".

Back about 2014, I decided to see what I could do with a Bach 7C. With some acclimation, I found that rim to be an improvement on accuracy, precision, intonation, and a little more focused sound.

So the conundrum is this....I can play them both about equally, but in doing so, I wish I had the best features of the other one...none of this has anything to do with range, and the 7C is not uncomfortable. I don't have the problems with it that many seem to have, although I do see why some players like the 3C rim in regard to comfort. But for me, the slight increase in comfort, volume, and flexibility comes with a trade off in precision and reliability of attacks and control.

I am grateful for any thoughts about this.... Playing both of them hasn't really caused any real problems, but I'm not sure if that is what needs to be done. I guess if I had the best qualities of each, I would have found what I might call the "perfect" general purpose mouthpiece for me.
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khedger
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at the Bach mouthpiece manual the differences between the 1 1/4 C and the 3C are that the cup diameter is larger on the 11/4C and they describe the cup depth on the 11/4 as 'medium' and on the 3 as 'deep'. In the notes, they describe the 11/4 as 'large cup' and the 3 as 'fairly large cup'. 7C is a medium depth with an even smaller cup diameter than the 3.

I've played a 3C for decades. A few times I've tried playing a 11/2C in an attempt to get a darker sound, but after a few weeks always returned to the 3c. The reason? The 11/2 always caused too much fatigue.

https://www.bachbrass.com/application/files/4614/8521/7763/AV2BA901_Original_1889_web.pdf
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MrOlds
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like you are more comfortable with the 7c. Maybe it’s the right choice for you.

Haveving said that, have you tried the 5c or 5b? Theoretically the 5c is between the 3c and 7c. There are a host of differences though.

The 5c a little deeper than the 3c but the diameter is a little smaller. Overall the cup volume of the 5c is bigger than the 3c so you’ll get some benefit in sound density from that. The inner edge the 5c is pronounced enough to give reasonable articulation.

Lots of vendors make a 5c-ish piece. Stork, Laskey, Curry. All are nice. Some differences between them.

If you want a 5c-ish piece with a 3c-ish rim profile (more comfy), the James New s4m might be a choice.

Orchestra guys sometimes have a 5b underpart matched to their 1-ish rims. Gives a big sound with brilliance.
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Jerry
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From your description, the 3C that you have does not work for you.

From your description, the 7C that you have works much better for you.

You might find another mouthpiece that works better for you than this 7C, but among the 3 mouthpieces you mention, that 7C is the winner.
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khedger
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's probably no coincidence that most beginners usually get steered to a 7c. The Bach manual says it's 'by far' the most widely used Bach mouthpiece in the world. I played one for the first 12 years I played the horn, so there's nothing wrong with it.

The real issue is whatever works for you and allows you to play what you want to play. I see some of the mouthpieces that famous, great players use and I'm totally amazed that they can even get a sound out of them. But that's what works for them......go for it.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are looking for a subtle difference between a Bach 7C, try a Schilke 11. About the same dimensions as a 7C but, for me, more comfortable.

You could also try a Monette Silver, larger, like a 3C but there's something about its construction makes adaptable for those comfortable with a Bach 7C, also.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:52 am    Post subject: Re: 3C VS 7C Reply with quote

DaveH wrote:
I don't mean to start a redundant mouthpiece conversation. And, I am not a professional, "making a living on trumpet" player. Perhaps if I were such, I wouldn't have this issue. And, I am not a specialist - not a screamer - not an orchestral player - just general purpose playing.

However, some thoughts might help me get a better grip on this topic as it relates to me personally.

I grew up playing a Bach 1 1/4C. For many years.

Several years ago, I began to have some embouchure problems that were "diagnosed" as playing with too open an embouchure setting, and lips collapsing into the cup and difficulty making a sound. With some "coaching", I developed the lips together, "MMMM" formation. This almost immediately solved my playing problems and improved just about everything else.

At that time, I wanted to downsize the mouthpiece, since I thought that the 1 1/4C that I had been using for a long time might be too big and contributing to the lips being blown apart.

So, I went to a Bach 3C. Good mouthpiece; nice tone, comfort, volume, and flexibility, but I have never been completely sure of the reliability of attacks and articulation that are produced for me by that rim. Articulation and control are just not quite as precise. Tone is not quite as centered and sometimes a little "woofy".

Back about 2014, I decided to see what I could do with a Bach 7C. With some acclimation, I found that rim to be an improvement on accuracy, precision, intonation, and a little more focused sound.

So the conundrum is this....I can play them both about equally, but in doing so, I wish I had the best features of the other one...none of this has anything to do with range, and the 7C is not uncomfortable. I don't have the problems with it that many seem to have, although I do see why some players like the 3C rim in regard to comfort. But for me, the slight increase in comfort, volume, and flexibility comes with a trade off in precision and reliability of attacks and control.

I am grateful for any thoughts about this.... Playing both of them hasn't really caused any real problems, but I'm not sure if that is what needs to be done. I guess if I had the best qualities of each, I would have found what I might call the "perfect" general purpose mouthpiece for me.


Your tale does resemble mine! I began playing on my Bach 1 1/4 in 1970 and did so til 1995 or so when I got into trouble trying to fill a Bach cornet. Instead of taking lessons I began a safari including several Schilkes (variants of 14). Then I had a chops meltdown, met a teacher who corrected my embouchure.
So then I made my safari go a little further ending up with two makes:
1)Denis Wick 2)Stork. Denis Wick has a line called American Classic - https://www.deniswick.com/product/american-classic-trumpet-mouthpiece-silver-plated/ ranging from 1 1/2 to 7. Same very comfy rim throughout- far more comfy than the Bach rims (to my lips..). You can test which diameter is the best for you - much better tonal quality on these Wicks than on the Bachs - in my view (ears). From your description I guess one of these mpc:s might constitute "the "perfect" general purpose mouthpiece" for you!
The Stork I use is a StudioMaster VM6, rim close to the Wicks, enough depth to avoid bottoming (V andC cup), enough punch to be used as a lead piece. But that might not be in your interest!
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BobD
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been going between a Bach 7C and Yamaha 14B4 and 14C4 pieces. I find I can go between the 7C and the 14's pretty comfortably while the 11C4 I have feels much smaller than the Bach 7C. So maybe try the 14's from Yamaha. You can get them used on the cheap right here on TH.
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khedger
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would add one more note of caution. Mine might not be a very popular opinion, but here goes:
When I was in high school, a lot of the guys I know started playing what I call 'mouthpiece roulette'. Constantly procuring yet another mouthpiece in the hopes that it would feel better, play better, whatever. I too engaged in this game for a short while. I quickly decided that this was folly. I had neither the funds nor the temperament to keep playing this game. So, what to do? I was 16 years old, I was self taught.
I started reading every interview with a trumpet player I could. I did everything I could to find out what mouthpiece the players I knew used, and why (remember this is LONG before google). After reading a whole bunch of books, articles, etc. I tabulated results and found that of the players I liked and heard on records, a whole bunch of them named a Bach 3c as the mouthpiece they used. I had been playing a 7c (and briefly a 101/2c). I got hold of a 3c and tried it out. I felt like I could understand why it was so widely used. It felt very similar to the 7c, but had a larger cup and allowed me to get a richer sound. It also tired me out, but I resolved to give it a couple of months of solid practice and judge the results.
I've pretty much played the 3c (or equivalent) since then.
Why am I telling you this? I would encourage you to find a mouthpiece you're comfortable with and stick with it. Sure, it's reasonable to check some alternatives if your unhappy every once in a while, but I would recommend the never ending game of 'mouthpiece roulette' that never seems to end for those who engage in it. Spend your time and energy learning to play....
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Seymor B Fudd. Thank you for putting a space between the 1s (1 1/4 etc.). At first, I was trying at first to figure out what a 11/4 was.
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's loads of variables at play here.. i


It's clear that by your assessments the 7c seems favourable, but it's not quite so clear why...
ID is different, rim contour is different, cup shape and volume are different, it'd be a fool that would even attempt to guess which factor was key here (and it maybe more than one of them, to different degrees).

To find out more would require methodical testing and probably cash outlay... If it's worth it to you, that's the next step... If it's not, then stick to one of them and practice (from reading your post, that sounds more likely the 7c to me, but it's up to you)
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The original post lacks enough detail about which specific attributes of each piece is lacking or is wanted.

That said, I might recommend the Bach 5C. It's got a rim I think is closer to the 7C than the 3C, and it's got plenty of cup volume. I've read posts that say the Curry equivalent is even better.
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Last edited by cheiden on Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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trickg
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try a couple of different 3Cs from other makers. I don't like the rim on a Bach 3C, but I like the rim on the Curry 3C, and I've heard that the rim on Austin Custom Brass 3Cs are also very, very comfortable.

As you can see from my signature, I'm currently using an ACB 3B, and I like it a lot.
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chapahi
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
If you are looking for a subtle difference between a Bach 7C, try a Schilke 11. About the same dimensions as a 7C but, for me, more comfortable.


True that. Also Laskey's 50C. It has the same kind of specs but nicer rim.
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DaveH
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many thanks to all for these insights and suggestions.

I don't think there is much of a better or worse level of comfort either way, but definitely a different feel between these pieces.

I am influenced by lower register articulation, which is usually better on the 7C.

But the 3C does have some very good features - a little bigger tone and potential for volume, a little more flexibility.

I think it's mostly the rim design, and I think my old days on the 1 1/4C may be involved. The 7C may be a smaller "cousin" of that rim, more so than the 3C - and I may be experiencing some kind of "familiarity factor".

I know that with proper practice, I can probably get used to many things, but one thing I am sure of, and that is a 1 1/4C is too big nowadays...probably always was, and it took a while to find out.
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AlbertHwang
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've tried to play on a Schilke 16C4, but in the end I always go back to the 3C. My endurance and range take a giant hit on the 16C4 (which is about the size of a 1 1/2C).
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a returnee and kind of frustrated by how hard it is to make sense of mouthpiece sizes. I'd played on a Schilke 15b years ago, which is supposed to be similar to a 3c. I restarted on a Carolbrass 3c because it's what I had. It felt a little big. Someone gave me a Dennis Wick 4b, which I loved, and was then surprised to read it is the DW version of a 7c. My son has a 7c and it feels smaller than the DW 4b.

But then in reading about Bach 3c, 5c, 7c, width and cup size are apparently not on a continuum. Why is "c" sometimes medium depth and sometimes deep? I think probably I am somewhere in the 7c/5c/3c range, but more towards a 5c.

For now I like the Dennis Wick 4b and will probably stick with it (I keep trying bigger mouthpieces but finding them to be too big).
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khedger
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
@Seymor B Fudd. Thank you for putting a space between the 1s (1 1/4 etc.). At first, I was trying at first to figure out what a 11/4 was.


What, you've never played any Hank Levy charts?!?!?
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rockford
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HaveTrumpetWillTravel wrote:

But then in reading about Bach 3c, 5c, 7c, width and cup size are apparently not on a continuum. Why is "c" sometimes medium depth and sometimes deep? I think probably I am somewhere in the 7c/5c/3c range, but more towards a 5c. .
Bach mouthpieces were initially custom mouthpieces and weren't developed as a set. The 7,5 and 3 C's are by far the most popular for all around playing. Pick the one that's easiest to play that provides a sound you like and then put the others away. Good luck.
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jjtrumpets
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I started on an Olds 3 (like a Bach 7B), then my teacher moved me to a Bach 3C. I stuck with that until about halfway through college, then discovered the Bach 1C. I liked the bigger sound of the 1C, and it got me through grad school.

About a year ago, I decided that I'd try my Bach 3C/24bbr, my usual Eb trumpet mouthpiece, on Bb. I loved it. I loved how I didn't have to work so hard to light the sound up, and the upper register wasn't so flat and difficult.

After trying an ACB flugelhorn mouthpiece and *really* liking it, I decided to get an ACB 3C. It feels more comfortable than the Bach and blows a bit easier. It also plays well in tune and has a richer sound than the Bach 3C/standard 10 bbr. I've tried a few others, and settled on the ACB.

I spent 10 years on the Bach 3C and 20 years on the Bach 1C. While the mouthpiece choice makes a little difference for ease and sound production, there's not one out there that can substitute for what Arnold Jacobs calls "Song & Wind," and lots of musical practice.

You might like trying a used ACB--I like all of the mouthpieces I've gotten from them--but no matter what, your concept of the sound and the energy of relaxed blowing will be far more important.

Happy practicing!
JWH
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