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mathgeek Veteran Member
Joined: 19 Jul 2004 Posts: 468 Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:33 pm Post subject: Learning KTM is a struggle |
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I have been at it for about two months and I still am not getting it right. My articulation are still dull and my range is still capped at high Bb, B, or C, depending upon the day.
I know I need to keep practicing, but it is extremely frustrating and I am getting tired of sounding like crap in my lessons. Apparently I am just a slow learner.
What was everyone else’s experience? Am I taking an extraordinary amount of time or is this more of a typical experience? _________________ Bach 43
Marcinkiewicz CG Personal (22 throat) |
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LaTrompeta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 May 2015 Posts: 867 Location: West Side, USA
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Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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May I ask why you are so intent on learning it? _________________ Please join me as well at:
https://trumpetboards.com |
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Mike Sailors Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Oct 2012 Posts: 1838 Location: Austin/New York City
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Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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Never worked for me either. _________________ www.mikesailors.com |
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solo soprano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2012 Posts: 856 Location: Point O' Woods / Old Lyme, Connecticut
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Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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It took me a good 6 months to get the feel.
Is this how you understand KTM?
First a word about tongue placement. Say the syllables "aw - eee - aw - eee" and you will notice that the tip of tongue stays behind the lower teeth.
The tip of the tongue should not be anchored rigidly behind the lower teeth, since the tongue must be allowed to float up and down into the correct level for each note. Let the tongue tip go where it needs to go but no higher than the very top of the bottom teeth.
The tip, then, should be placed lightly behind the lower teeth, by the top of the teeth, not down at the gum line.
The front center portion of the tongue moves forward to make the attack against the upper teeth.
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"My articulation are still dull and my range is still capped at high Bb, B, or C, depending upon the day." mathgeek
To produce a clear attack, a responsive lip and a fast air stream are the most important elements. While there will be those who disagree, the tongue, in and by itself, does not make a sound. It is rather, the immediate vibration of the lip that produces the the first attack, and the interruption of the wind by the tongue that causes the lips to stop for a split second and start again, that produces succeeding attacks.
To develop a good tone delivery try practicing the "HEE" attack. Here's how it's done: moisten the lips and press them together. (Not pinched.) Take a big breath and blow, striving to make the attack with no tongue as clear as you can. The air stream must be fast, like a bullet.
Then when you add the tongue to this type of blowing, you will have a clear attack that has full sound.
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"my range is still capped at high Bb, B, or C, depending upon the day."
Many players blow hard. Some know the value of finding the tongue level. But few realize that the embouchure contracts as you ascend. Embouchure contraction is the action of the muscles surrounding the lips that hold the lips in place so they will vibrate. These muscles draw toward the mouthpiece as you ascend and relax , or draw away from the mpc. as you descend.
Best Wishes _________________ Bill Knevitt, who taught me the seven basic physical elements and the ten principles of physical trumpet playing and how to develop them.
https://qpress.ca/product-category/trumpet/?filter_publisher=la-torre-music
Last edited by solo soprano on Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2655 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:59 am Post subject: |
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LaTrompeta wrote: | May I ask why you are so intent on learning it? |
I wondered this too. And my other question is I'm wondering who your teacher is. My original teacher had trouble communicating the concept to me and I didn't get it until many years later. _________________ Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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Grits Burgh Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Oct 2015 Posts: 805 Location: South Carolina
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Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | LaTrompeta posted:
May I ask why you are so intent on learning it? |
Speaking for myself, practicing this technique is the most effective one I have found for mastering double and triple tonguing. I'm no expert on the subject, but it seems to me that it strengthens the muscles required to double and triple tongue. It also improves muscle memory and coordination. If you are one of those people for whom double and triple tonguing came naturally, good for you. For me, double and triple tonguing are a real struggle.
Warm regards,
Grits _________________ Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy. |
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Mike Sailors Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Oct 2012 Posts: 1838 Location: Austin/New York City
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Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:21 am Post subject: |
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The best tonguing advice I've ever heard came from Peter Bond. He says to articulate exactly like you speak.
I've told that to countless people, and it always helps.
I know that's not CG advice, but hey . . . _________________ www.mikesailors.com |
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Turkle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2008 Posts: 2450 Location: New York City
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Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:29 am Post subject: |
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Mike Sailors wrote: | The best tonguing advice I've ever heard came from Peter Bond. He says to articulate exactly like you speak.
I've told that to countless people, and it always helps.
I know that's not CG advice, but hey . . . |
This has been my experience as well.
I tried KTM for a while and loathed it, so I'm back and quite happy with my natural tongue position, which is located precisely where I speak.
As I understand it, the principal advantage of KTM tonguing is it keeps everything far forward which makes extreme upper register playing and articulation easier. But since I can already get my tongue level up without resorting to KTM, and can articulate all over the horn, why mess with it?
Understood that KTM works for some, but it sure didn't do anything for me. _________________ Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3. |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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If taught correctly by a competent teacher, KTM usually starts working within 3 or 4 weeks. I've never had a student who learned KTM from me and ever wanted to go back to the old way. I have had some who were doing it correctly and thought they weren't or tried to overdo it (pushing their tongues against the bottoms of their back teeth all the time, even when sustaining notes, or not allowing their tongues to rise up and all from the very bottom area of the back teeth) that had trouble, but with proper guidance they got through it.
When properly developed, KTM doesn't just help the upper register, it also speeds up articulation speed and cleans up articulations in all registers, because there is much less tongue movement and the tip is never up in the way of the air stream.
It's really not as radical as it might seem to be, and I think that might be one reason folks don't successfully learn it when trying it on their own. Sometimes they try too hard and are too radical with it and without the help and guidance of a competent teacher, they end up giving up on it.
And no, I'm not writing this to troll for students, it's just the truth.
Best wishes,
John Mohan _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student |
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mathgeek Veteran Member
Joined: 19 Jul 2004 Posts: 468 Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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I am learning this because that is what is required. I think the problem I am having is that the exercises I have been assigned to develop this tonguing style are too difficult for me yet. I have to think about more than just tonguing while i am playing. I have decided to simplify things and just focus simple exercises. I am still working on my lessons too, but I needed to step back a bit a really focus on getting a clean attack. It’s coming along, but until I get this down better, my progress is kind of stuck.
Back at it tomorrow! _________________ Bach 43
Marcinkiewicz CG Personal (22 throat) |
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EBjazz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2001 Posts: 2368 Location: SF Bay Area
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JVL Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2016 Posts: 894 Location: Nissa, France
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Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 10:51 am Post subject: |
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hello
i discovered it, almost 2 years ago by case, automatically as a sane body action, after decades of TU or TA tonguing.
I asked advices to John Mohan & the late Mcgovnor, to earn time, and their advices helped me very well for transition.
You just have to take time, be patient and concentrated when you're practicing.
For me it'a more efficient technic for tonguing.
best |
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Philippe S. New Member
Joined: 03 Jul 2018 Posts: 5
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Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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Hi, It simply takes a bit of time.... stick with it and set small goals! |
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